Speaker Series: Full Episode Page

How to Survive Wilderness Therapy as a Parent


Andy Goldstrom, Certified Parent Coach at Parents Journey Coaching and host of podcast, The Wilderness Therapt & Residential Treatment Journey


Brenda Zane is a Sky’s the Limit Fund board member, Founder of Hopestream Community, and podcast host of Hopestream

About the episode:

A conversation with Andy Goldstrom about his family’s experience and a discussion about what should you expect while your child is away at wilderness therapy and what should you consider doing as parents when your child is away. Andy provides helpful tools that helped him throughout his family’s journey.

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Brenda 0:01
Hello, hello, welcome to another Speaker Series session with Sky’s the Limit Fund. I’m so glad that you’re back with us. If you have joined us in the past, you’ve heard some amazing guests. And we have another amazing guest today with us that you’re going to hear from in just a few minutes, I’ll just take a quick minute and introduce Sky’s the Limit Fund. We are a nonprofit organization that helps families have access to wilderness therapy, and family coaching after wilderness therapy. And so it’s a very unique organization that really meets families in that time of crisis and helps them with a really life saving treatment modality that can be very hard to access from a financial standpoint. So that is what we do. We’re super glad to have you here with us today. And we’re going to have a great conversation with Andy Goldstrom. And Andy is very familiar with Sky’s the Limit Fund and he is also very familiar with wilderness therapy. So let me just introduce Andy and then we’ll have him come on. So for much of his career, and he’s been a successful entrepreneur and business person, he has built and sold businesses and did that for most of his career. And he really loved inspiring his employees, and being very passionate in his career. Then his younger daughter, Audrey, entered her teenage years, and she struggled emotionally and academically. And, and he realized that his focus needed to change a little bit. And so he started working more locally, and he and his wife, Laurie partner together to find some local solutions for their daughter for Audrey. And as a lot of people find out that proved to be unsuccessful in what she needed. And so they elected to send Audrey for help by going to wilderness therapy. And after wilderness therapy, Audrey then went into a residential treatment program. And during that time, Andy and Laurie invested in parent coaching so that they could really come together in that experience. There’s a lot of grieving that goes on, there’s a lot of forgiveness that needs to happen, a lot of learning about ourselves as parents. And so they did all of that work together so that they could really better align with Audrey and where she was in her program. The coaching actually created such a shift in their dynamics as a family that Andy decided to get certified as parent coach. So he does that now. And since Audrey returned home, as a way to give back to the community, Andy and Laurie started a podcast called The Wilderness Therapy and Residential Treatment Journey. So you can listen to that on all the podcast players, they have great guests amazing topics, so helpful if you are in that stage, where you’re really trying to understand what this treatment option is like. And so as a parent coach, he is now certified to help other parents go through this lived experience that he has. So let’s welcome Andy on and we’ll have a discussion about his family’s experience and some really, really interesting thoughts and advice that he has for us. So welcome, Andy.

Andy 3:24
Hey, thank you, Brenda, thanks for the introduction, and really appreciate the having the opportunity to be on and sharing some thoughts with the parents.

Brenda 3:33
Yes, it’s so good. I was thinking back to 2014, or 15, when I was going through this experience, if I had had the opportunity to hear from someone like you who’s been through this, and now really has dug deep and done coaching work and a podcast, I would have paid a million dollars for that just to have that accessible to me. So we really appreciate you being on sky’s the limit fund is so appreciative of your all the work that you’ve done and your family. So thank you for being here. Do you want to Yeah, I want to dive right into some questions that I know parents have. And one of those is, you know, I kind of put myself in your shoes during those years, and you’re reaching out for local resources that are out there. And when those don’t work, it’s really scary. So I’m I’m curious to know, what was going on when you had to make that very difficult decision to send Audrey away for a program versus being able to help her locally?

Andy 4:41
Sure. Well, the first thing I wanted to chime in about is you’re talking about having access to the resources that we know of now when we were going through some of the difficult challenges that you’re referencing, and you can’t put a price on that. And we didn’t As a family, we did not know about anything other than local resources. We didn’t know what wilderness therapy was we didn’t know, residential treatment, or any of the other options to get help in a more advanced way existed. Until we were fortunate enough to have our doctor. My daughter’s pediatrician, basically say, who was well aware of her situation, basically, connect some parents who had children who, to us, she couldn’t obviously give their us their names, but that’s how we found out about it as an option. And so, you know, so you know, you can’t put a price on your family’s happiness, or your child’s happiness, or just the ability to cope and, and be independent. And so we went through all those things locally, we thought we were being good parents, and everybody’s got a different journey and a different situation, my daughter, and you’ll see a couple pictures of her later, but she, she, you know, was a cute kid who was doing really well in life, never met, a stranger was always happy. But she tested very low with short term memory issues. So what happened was when she became a teenager, her peers started surpassing her both academically and emotionally. And so that’s she had trouble keeping up. And so that created situations where she wasn’t in the advanced classes anymore. She had some trouble focusing, she had trouble connecting with people. And, and so she started getting depressed, and having trouble handling that. And when we’re able to detect that and diagnose it, and we did all the things that a caring parent would hopefully do, my wife and I, you know, we, she saw psychiatrist and got the medication she needed. She had a tutor, you know, several tutors, she got an IOP at school. You know, we did all the, you know, all the appropriate things, she had a therapist, you know, that she would see once or twice a week locally, but it didn’t it, it just was like putting a BandAid on a very deep wound. And so we had to find another option one way or another. And, you know, one of the things that I’ve learned was that, you know, Audrey was starting to do some things that were unsafe to her on safe the others. And she was becoming more defiant. And the problem that we had was, we started becoming more frustrated and concerns. So we started trying to micromanage her more and lock down. All the while while she was just trying to not be a bad kid, she was just trying to cope and find a way to survive. It was almost like somebody who was in a snowbank trying to breathe and just get out and not worry about all the other things going around her and so. So we were very fortunate that at the time that we you know, realize that wilderness therapy was available to us, we were even more fortunate that we our educational consultant referred us to sky’s the limit fund where we were able to get a grant and so I’ve been indebted ever since.

Brenda 8:28
That’s amazing. It’s it always is fascinating to me to hear that chain of events that takes place to bring somebody to that decision, because it’s it is unique for everybody. Like for you. It was a pediatrician for somebody else, it might be a friend, you know, to find those those resources because it is like a needle in a haystack. Like, you’re so scared and you see your child in so much pain in need, and you don’t know where to turn. And that is just so, so scary. So you saw, I just kind of want to recap what you said you saw some behavior that was indicating to you that things were getting worse. It wasn’t that these local resources were helping in improving the situation. You had put all that scaffolding around her and things were still heading in a downward direction. Is that kind of what was going on at that time? Totally Accurate. Okay. So that’s a that’s a scary place to be when you see that. And so getting in touch with sky’s the limit fund is, is great for if you’re listening and don’t know, if the organization provides grants for programs and then the programs match that grant. And so that’s often really the only way that families can get access to this because it is astronomically expensive, and I would say worth every penny of it. So and I’m sure that you would too. But what if we could go back and maybe kind of think about what would somebody expect, as you’re in that process? So you’ve made the decision, wilderness therapy is the choice that you’ve made? What should you expect when you make that decision, because it’s a big one, and it can feel very extreme. Maybe you can give us some some pointers on Sure. Like, the What to Expect When You’re Expecting version of wilderness therapy.

Andy 10:31
Yeah, my wife and I read that book too many, many months ago. Well, just referring back to the, you know, to the where you stand as a parent, when you’re approaching, thinking about wilderness therapy as an option when you first discover it. And it’s daunting, it’s, there’s a stigma associated with, you know, mental illness or substance use or sending your child away for help. It’s a, it’s a very lonely existence, it’s very expensive. And, and the decisions need to be made in a very timely basis, you can’t just kicked the can down the road. And so part of the reason we put together that podcast your reference, was because we wanted a place where a parent who was looking at different aspects of wilderness therapy, either from Educational Consultants to transportation to insurance costs to parent coaching, they had a they had a voice, not just a blog somewhere, or something else. And so it was meant to educate parents and provide them some comfort and direction that they can just click on what they wanted, and hear something, a point of view from an expert and do that. And so, you know, we wish we had that. But the gratifying thing is, we’ve gotten such great feedback, in terms of how it’s helped parents, you know, parents from all over the country and all over the world, just saying, hey, it was, you know, whenever your podcasts hit on my jog in the morning, and it’s the first thing I tuned into, and it makes me feel, you know, what it makes me feel more part of the community and better about myself and about my child’s situation. And it could be people who were, you know, not even thinking about wilderness therapy, yet, it could be those that are in the middle of it, and it could be those that are that are after to return to help others are trying to, you know, continue on with their journeys. And so, you know, once you make that decision, you know, I think you need to understand the value of wilderness therapy, as you make that decision. And, and, as I know, I know, you’re well aware, you know, the industry trade organization, for therapeutic schools and programs, it’s called natsap. And they just funded a study that showed the value of wilderness therapy, and it talked about children who go there, and have suggested overall, with a large study that was done, that they have healthier relationships, better family functioning, a stronger sense of self improved emotional balance, and more insightful, future oriented thinking. So who wouldn’t want that if your kids in crisis, and you’re able to, you’re able to come out with improvements in all those areas? It’s like, okay, you know, where do I need to go, and what’s the right fit for my child, given those circumstances and so, and then once your child is away, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s a traumatic change, you know, your child all of a sudden is, you know, was struggling, but was home, likely going to school potentially involved in other things potentially, and all of a sudden, they’re not part of your daily life, because they’re getting advanced help. So there’s a there’s a lot to expect there. And, and if you can show that first picture of Audrey and may, if that can, if you can have that pop up. You can see that she and I, she was you know, at wilderness therapy, she was at Pacific quest in Hawaii, and it was in the winter time in 2018. So it was relatively warm there. A lot of the other wilderness therapy locations are in colder climates, we selected a warmer climate for her for is one of our criteria for her, and, and, you know, I got a chance to visit with her after she had stabilized and I think, you know, some of the things to think about and that was a nice picture and a nice memory because I got to check in on her with my wife and all the rest that she was making. progress there. But I think the things to expect are that it’s not a linear process, and you’re not getting your kid fixed, right, there’s no straight line in terms of how to how to get better how to get the family unit better, everybody’s journey is different, everybody’s timeline is different. And this serves as a as a reset button for kids, it takes away the stressors and allows them to reset and get therapy. And, and, and, and, and then either move back home or go on to residential treatment, or go to college or do something else. So it’s really allowing them to over a three month period or so to haven’t have another chance and have an opportunity with great therapists and a great environment. In most instances, to do that, and a lot of there’s been a lot of controversy about how kids get to these places. And, and I’m always I’m often asked that, and, and the key thing about transportation is, is, you know, nobody should have, you know, if a parent can drive their child and their child is in the right mental state, and is agreeable, and all the rest, they, you know, that should be the first choice. But some cases, including with us, we were in crisis. And it was like, you know, we were, we were worried about our kids safety. And so we elected that, because we thought it was the safest thing for us and our child to do that. Now, it wasn’t easy. They were, you know, she was expensive, she was woken up in the middle of night. But we were coached really well. And, and when you when you put safety in mind, for your child, even though it’s a tough transition, it really works well. And so once my daughter got there, we actually had pictures of her from the San Francisco Airport, eating a salad with her chaperone smiling and was like the first time in months that we had seen a smile like that on her face. And so we knew that was kind of an indication. And then what happens is, once they get there, this kind of a quiet period, right? They don’t want, they want to help reset your child, they don’t want the stressors back home, and the parents weighing in and everything else. So there’s a quiet period where you just, you know, where you have to, you know, there’s a potential email communication, but there’s no direct communication with or without their counseling. And so you have to let them do their work. And so you know, and, and go about that quiet period. And in some instances, your child may have some regret and want to come home and may want to try and communicate that they want to come home or leave and, and, you know, they have to be able to stay there and do the work and let them do their work. And so, you know, the idea, I think is, you know, let wilderness therapy is a very effective methodology. And program, it’s come a long way the NATSAP study confirms that, you know, so many of us have had such great experiences. But you need to let you know, parents need to realize it’s not linear. And over the three month period, or whatever, you got to let the team there, do their work and report to you and be able and align with how you can engage in a proper way with your child.

Brenda 18:36
Yeah. So they’re when they’re away, and you’re letting that work happen. What what are you doing as a parent? Like what are some of the things that now that your house is potentially quieter, calmer? You know, your child’s in a safe place? What’s the work that you need to be doing as a parent?

Andy 18:57
Yeah, it’s, it’s, there’s a lot cuz I mentioned before, it’s not about sending your kid away to get fixed, it’s about sending your your child away to get help. But then you got to help yourself. And so the first thing I think of is, is be grateful and appreciative. Everybody says, Woe is me, I have a child that had to send away it’s so expensive, it’s so terrible. But the fact is, is that, you know, those who are able to send their kids away have the means to do so. And they should be grateful for that they should be grateful for places like sky’s the limit font and other resources that are available. And, and, you know, appreciative that they they have a journey that will hopefully allow their child to be more independent and happy go forward and their family to be more harmonious. And I think that the thing that was most telling to me was my wife went to meet Audrey. At the end, she was transitioning from from in from wilderness therapy to residential treatment, and so they had a weekend to get there before she got settled in, into her residential treatment location in Oregon. And my daughter came up with something that was very wise and very impactful. She basically said, Mom, I’m very lucky. And my wife said, Why do you say that Audrey. And she said, it’s because I got to learn some skills, and tools to be able to cope and to be able to communicate, that I wouldn’t have otherwise ever gotten had I not gone to wilderness therapy. And there’s some people who, you know, never had that opportunity. You know, and they, they struggled, because they haven’t gone to wilderness therapy, or they just never got to that breaking point, but still never developed the tools to be able to cope and make things make things work better in their lives. And so it was really insightful that she said that, given what she had gone through, because she was taken away from her daily life, but she felt grateful. So parents should be grateful. Second thing is, you know, parents have to do the work. If the parents don’t do the work, then the child comes back, and then the interactions fall back into old, old ways. And, you know, and when your child is sent away, part of it is the way the child is, but part of the ways that in the way the child has grown up, and the way the child has reacted the world, but part of it is the way the child has interacted with the parents and the siblings and others in that world. And so, so for us, and for parents, in general, part of it’s a grieving process. It’s, you know, frankly, you know, how did we get to this point and, and can we be accepting of it and try and move forward. And, and, and, and part of it was forgiving each other, my wife and I had very different parenting styles, I was the get er, done kind of guy, I traveled a lot on business. So I wasn’t as patient I was tired, when I would come home, my wife was the, you know, the admittedly, she was the rescuer. And she was the one who helped out, you know, did everything she could to try and be a caring mom. But in some ways, it’s at some point, she, she protected her from having to go through some adversity at times. And so my wife and I needed to forgive each other and get aligned better, so that there was a consistent message to our child, in the way we approach things came when she returned home, and then we need to prepare for those next steps for when she came home. So we engaged with a parent coach. And we, we engaged in the work, I mean, we practiced, we attended, we paid we, you know, we role played, we read books, we did all the things, you know, all the things that we were told to do. And it made a huge difference in our outlook, and our ability to welcome our daughter back to our house. And so, you know, I can’t emphasize I became a parent coach, because I realized how valuable it was. And, and, and then two other things is, you know, it’s an opportunity to get your finances in order. Most people don’t make a choice to send their child to wilderness and shop. Like they would go to, you know, like that we go to a store, you know, you go to Target and then you go on to Amazon and say, Can I get a cheap on Amazon? You find the right solution, you send your kid there? And then you say, Okay, how am I going to figure out how to pay for it? Yeah, so So there’s an opportunity, you know, the, on my podcast, there are several interviews relating to insurance coverage and how to set yourself best up for success. And, and getting a medical necessity letter up front, with the correct diagnosis, being able to document everything properly. There, there, there are a lot of ways that you can do the right things to mitigate some of the cost and this would be an appropriate time to do that. And then, you know, giving back is important, it’s always important to, you know, to, to you know, to be able to be able to be appreciative and engage in your community and if you have the ability to give money somewhere or your time or your expertise somewhere, it’s a way to feel better about yourself and about the community even while you’re struggling and so, so, that’s, I think what needs to be done as parents, you know, be appreciative do the work, get parent coaching, you know, and get your ship in order in order, you know, while you’re while your child is working hard to

Brenda 24:57
write, so it’s not just hand them off. off, and then just sit back and wait for them to return fixed. It’s there’s a lot going on there from a parenting standpoint. And I know that you created a model that I’d love to hear a little bit about the empowering model that parents can really learn about and benefit from. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about that.

Andy 25:20
Yeah, happy to do that. This is a model I use quite frequently in my practice. And it’s really something that I created that isn’t rocket science, but it’s based upon experience and traps that parents fall into. And most of it is just parents often try to solve their problems for the kids. And I talked about rescuing a little bit. And the real point of it is that children and anybody, not the children especially, but they want control and want to have a say, doesn’t mean that they have to have that doesn’t mean that they have to be right, it doesn’t mean that they have to get what they want. They just want to have some some control. And and a say, and children actually feel safer and respond better when given boundaries, and non judgmental support. So you know, when you when you’re providing a boundary, it’s okay, you know, it’s, it’s how it’s delivered. And then you got to let them do the work and do something that I call bouncing against the world. I mean, you have to let them experience life, the successes, the failures, and learn from them and see what they like and don’t like. And so this model is really about how to empower your children so that they will experience life and learn from it. And so it’s five steps. The first one is you can see up on the screen here is about listening. So it’s paying attention and not interrupting or casting judgment. So it’s, it’s allowing them to tell you about their concerns, or what’s on their mind or what they need help with, without trying to solve it for them without trying to cut them off. Or without telling them that they’re, you know, that they’re missing something or not good enough, then it’s really important step number two to reflect and sympathize. So it’s mirroring what your, what they’re saying back to them. So they need to hear you, and that you understand what they’re saying that you’re paying attention. That’s what gives them good feedback and makes them feel like they’ve been heard. And a lot of parents will say, Well, when I was a kid, you know, we didn’t have all these things, or when I was a, you know, or your sister didn’t do this, or whatever. And it’s not about comparing them to anything, their experiences is unique to them and their situations unique to them. So it’s not about you, it’s not about somebody else. It’s about them and reflecting and sympathizing, then it’s suggesting boundaries. So it’s determining or reinforcing what the rules are. And remember, you’re the parent, you’re not trying to be their friend. And you need to be 100% clear on the boundary and the consequences, and some of them are natural consequences, some you know, that they experience in life, you know, you get a speeding ticket, you have to pay the ticket. If you you know, if you do something at home, or you know, that goes against the parental rule in the house, then you have you know, whatever the rule is, they have to be able to pay the consequences for it. And also enjoy the benefits of doing things well. Asking for options. So it’s MIT, let them make the choice, as opposed to you telling them what the choice is, let them explore the different options, you know, in and around those boundaries, so that they can decide what they want to pursue, take the risk that they want to take, as long as it’s not a risk that is going to imperil themselves or somebody else and make their own choices. And then you know, and then ultimately let them decide, and let them live. That’s how they’re going to learn. That’s how they’re going to grow again, your your desires for them to be independent and safe and happy. And if they are able to make some decisions when they have parental support. In a non judgmental way, they’ll be able to test some things and be able to learn what’s good and doesn’t work for them and what’s safe and not safe and what makes them happy and what will make them independent. And what I like to do is share an example, if I met that’d be great. And this is a real life story with me and my daughter, Audrey. I’ve paraphrased here in a couple of instances just to simplify the story, but the whole but it’s how the empowering model played out. And what I will tell you is when I’ve shared this empowering model example with people people say oh Audrey is so amazing. She was so agreeable in your in what you said here and I will tell you that It took a lot of using the empowering model over time to get her to respond in this way, it doesn’t happen like that. Right, you have to be consistent, you have to be aligned. And you have to be willing to listen and be attuned for somebody to gain trust in you and for you to gain trust with them. So here’s the example, when preparing to come home from her residential treatment program, Audrey called me and told me that she really wanted to have an opportunity to party when she got home. And so, you know, what do you think went through my head? You got it, you know, What nerve? How dare she? Does she know how much money we’ve spent on her? Why doesn’t she understand that party or is going to send her back to her old destructive habits? Right? But, you know, and my gut would have ordinarily told me to, you know, admonish her or just shut that down, shut that down right away and not even listen to, but I tried to use the empowering models. So rather than just jumping at her and doing that, and saying, No, I took a deep breath. And I calmly asked her, you know, Audrey, I heard what you just said, but can you tell me why you really want to do that. And she said that, though, I know I needed to get, I needed to go away to get better. I feel like I lost an entire year of my life. I didn’t get to go to prom, or to graduation. I feel as if I worked hard to get better. And I’ve been sober for a long time now, before I needed to party to cope. I don’t need that anymore. So she told me that and it made me reflect that. You know, I didn’t jump at her. I just listened. So I was able to execute the first step in the empowering model. I listened to her I heard her point of view. Why is it that she wanted the party? So I responded by reflecting and sympathizing with her. I said, Hey, Audrey, thanks for sharing that. I’m proud of all you’ve accomplished while away. And I know it’s been difficult, you certainly missed out on a lot dynion. And being sober this long, probably hasn’t been easy. So again, I reflected and sympathize back to her. And she responded, Well, then I suggested something about a boundary that we had. I said, you know, in the contract that we had at residential treatment, we created a boundary that you can’t smoke or drink alcohol for 90 days, once you come home, your mom and I decided to do this because we wanted to make sure you had the best chance to settle in at home and build on all you learned this past year, we can certainly reevaluate that after 90 days together. Audra we understand what you seek here. But this isn’t something we’re prepared to change. So if you notice here, I reinforced the boundary that we put in place, and that she had agreed to maybe reluctantly, but she agreed to and we were parents, that was our boundary. And then I said, while I believe that you may not need drugs or alcohol any longer to cope, your mom and I also hope you’ll make a good choice. So you can become a vet tech. She wanted to become a veterinary technician. So that’s your goal, right? So she said, yeah, that’s my goal, dad, you know, do anything to be around animals. And that’s what I want to do with my life. So I said to her, well, then is it really worth risking partying right now, when you come home, given all you’ve accomplished and what you hope to do as a vet tech? He said, I guess not. So I said to Audrey, so what would you like to do? Notice I discussed different options without giving her advice. So she said, I guess I’ll push a wave and not push the issue. For now. She said. So notice, I gave her the choice to make the decision. And I said, Good choice, Audrey, I’m proud of you, and there for you to help you do your best to achieve your goals. So, so that’s the empowering model. And you can see rather than me telling her what to do or shutting her down, I let her make the right choice for her. And made her feel like she was heard throughout that process. And if parents do that on a consistent basis with their children, no matter what the age, whether they’re young adults, 2526, you know, old, you know, 18 to even younger kids who have to make choices for themselves that are age appropriate. This is a model that works that that makes a difference builds trust and builds independence and happiness and kids.

Brenda 34:50
Wow, that’s a really powerful example. Thank you for sharing that because I think sometimes it’s easy to see a model like that and you go Yeah, that sounds great. But how would I actually implement it? So that was a really, really helpful example to hear. Yeah, and I want to just re emphasize the fact that you said that that didn’t happen the first time you ever tried it that you do? Use that over and over until probably there’s some trust established from from both sides that we can have this type of a conversation, which is probably new. So thank you for sharing that.

Andy 35:29
That I work with, they’re like, you know, great, you demonstrate it to me, this model can work. But where do I start? Right? It’s just take the first step, where instead of telling your child what they need to do, or casting judgment on the child for the choice that they may make, let them make let them explore with you. I like the word explore. It’s not telling me what you’re going to do, or let me tell you what you’re going to do. It’s let’s explore together. You know, what, what, what the different alternatives are, there’s always another alternative. There’s always options in terms of the way you’re going to approach things. And there’s always, it’s always okay to ask for help.

Brenda 36:16
Yes, I love explore, like you said, because it’s, it’s non threatening, it feels very collaborative. Like, let’s just take a look at this. And so I love that. So much great information. So good to hear from a parent who’s lived through it, what to expect, kind of going into it, what those things are that we can be doing while our kids are away. Because I think that’s really something that people don’t think about. And it’s not because they’re ignorant to it. It’s just that you’re, you’re often in such a state of crisis up until that point that you haven’t thought about, oh, now, what am I going to do? So that was really helpful to hear, love the empowering model? Because it gives a framework for actually how to think through some conversations, and concrete tools are so helpful. So all amazing information, I assume you use that in your coaching, and I’d love for you to share where people could find you. Or how do they I know your podcast, the wilderness therapy and residential treatment journey. And that’s an all podcast players, right so people can find you there.

Andy 37:27
You bet. Okay, and as flashing on the screen, my websites parents tourney And if you go to the parents coaching page, there’s a download button. And you can if you’re interested in downloading this model, see, have a copy of it for yourself. And there are other resources on the site as well. You’re welcome to do them.

Brenda 37:52
Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks, Andy, so much for joining us. This has been such a great conversation, it could probably be three more hours. But we will wrap up and let people get in touch with you at your website, the podcast, such a great resource to just listen in and hear from experts. So thank you for joining us. And for anybody listening. We will be back with more of our speaker series. So you can tune in, go to the STLF website. I say that because it’s just an acronym that’s on my tongue but the sky’s the limit website to find other speaker series and other guests and thanks for joining us, Andy.

Andy 38:35
Thank you really enjoyed it.



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