Speaker Series: Full Episode Page

Mary 0:00
I am the Executive Director of Sky’s the Limit Fund. If you are unfamiliar with Sky’s the Limit Fund, we are a nonprofit organization that helps families with financial assistance in their time of crisis. We’re helping them get their kids into wilderness therapy. And today, I have with me, Brenda Zane and Kathy Cioth, who are founders of The Stream and The Woods, which are both online streaming services for families of kids who are struggling with substance misuse, and abuse and mental health issues. Today, we are going to talk about the incredible influence of parents when your child is misusing substances. Let’s first do a quick introduction. Brenda, you want to begin?

Brenda 0:51
Sure, I’m Brenda Zane. I am the founder of Hopestream podcast and that The Stream Community and now our new community for men called The Woods. And this is a nice switch for me, because I’m usually on the other side of the camera, or the microphone, I guess it is as a very honored to be a board member for Sky’s the Limit Fund and help out just trying to get more families, you know, the help they need when their kids are in crisis. So thanks. Thanks for having me.

Mary 1:24
Thank you for joining us. And Cathy.

Cathy 1:27
Well, I’m Cathy Cioth. And I’m super proud to be partnered with Brenda in these amazing communities. I had two kids that struggled with substance use. So finding this safe haven was really great. And after being part of it for a while we decided to partner up and, and really help parents through this process. And I also sit on the board of Sky’s the Limit Fund. I’m super proud to be part of this amazing organization. Wilderness Therapy was such a healing and life changing part of our family’s journey. So happy to be here. And thanks for having us.

Mary 2:05
Happy to have you. So this is interesting, right? Because we have three moms of wilderness wilderness kids is what I always love to say I’m a wilderness mom. And we’re going to, you know, talk about this this important topic. But at the same time, we were just saying that we could go on and on and on for days about this. So wilderness therapy has been just an absolute lifesaver for my family and my son. So it’s something I think we’re all very passionate about. All right. So Brenda, do you want to start just kind of talking about the important influence that parents have? And let’s just go from there?

Cathy 2:48
Sure. Yeah. And I think what you said, Mary is really true that when, when you have when your kids have been to wilderness, you have this kind of immediate bond with other families who’ve had that experience, because you know, what the family went through what the kids went through. And so it is like, we’re a little family whenever we meet each other. So that’s really fun. But well, it’s fun now, it’s not fun, right time, for sure. But we thought it would be really important to talk about the role that parents play. And this is, I think, even pre, you know, pre wilderness therapy. This is something that we really wanted to share with parents that when you start to see your child, and what by child, I mean anyone from, you know, 12-13 to mid 20s. So, this is not a kid. But when you see them start to drift into unhealthy behaviors, or like mine ran headfirst into unhealthy behaviors. And you realize they’re using substances and there’s just so much going on. There’s kind of this little known secret that you as the parent are the most influential factor in helping that young person makes some better choices. Start to think about getting help. So this isn’t we’re not saying that, you know, there’s this magic formula and you can wave a wand and your kids just going to turn around you’re going to avoid this whole thing. But parents that we work with tend to say, I feel so helpless. This is going on. I don’t know I don’t know how to compete with marijuana. I don’t know how to compete with fentanyl. I don’t know how to compete with, you know, LSD, all of these things that kids are doing. And so what we wanted to talk about today was this really important factor that you are so influential, if you have the right tools and if you’re really equipped, you can make a big, big difference. And it’s just something that I think not enough parents know.

Mary 5:08
Right, I agree, you do feel you really feel helpless. And you know, generally, where at least in my experience, you know, there’s so much anger right with your child and and then, there’s frustration on on the parents part near, you’re at your wit’s end, maybe don’t know what the time is that they’re also at their wit’s end. And communication just breaks down. So I am very curious to hear what the what is, what did you say there are, there are things you can do within the same day with some tips and tricks. Let’s hear them. I want to hear from you tell me.

Brenda 5:53
Cathy, you want to take that?

Cathy 5:55
Yeah, well, you know, it’s interesting, because I wish there was a magic wand, we all talk about that, right. And, yeah, these, these tips and tricks are known as CRAFT which stands for Community Reinforcement and Family Training. Anyway, this is a great skill set that people can learn. And within a day, they can have these skills and just start using them in their home. And I’ll be the first to say that I really wasn’t sure about this CRAFT training. When I first learned about it, I was becoming a parent coach with the Partnership to End Addiction. We had more substances going on in our family with a relapse. And it was quite a scary time. And I thought, this is the time to try these skills out. And I was shocked at how the well they were received by my child and the yelling stopped in our home. And there was compassion. And these little skills, motivational interviewing, realizing that these behaviors made sense, like you said, you know, Mary earlier that your child’s just as frustrated as you are. And so just having these little tips and tricks here and there, and learning how to actually communicate with your child, knowing these things, can help motivate them to get the help that they need. And it definitely calms the environment down. It basically, we’re saying that you may not be able to change exactly what’s going on with your child in terms of their substances, but if you change the environment that they’re living in, they’re able to look at it a little differently. And that might make a difference and want them to get help. I know, with my family, that’s that’s the way it worked.

Mary 7:46
I agree. I’m very, you know, it’s, I think somewhere I read that one of you maybe in your email mentioned the identified patient, and the impact that that has on the whole process and how it, you know, there while there is, you know, the child is using substances or has behavioral issues, or whatever it is at hand. I think that identified patient, that diagnosis is so detrimental when you’re trying to get them help. Because it’s easy, it’s just such an easy way to push that blame, you know, like you’re the one with the problem. So I think a change in that communication in the home environment is imperative, or it’s, it’s almost impossible for for them to succeed, in my opinion, in my experience as well.

Brenda 8:55
Yeah, I would agree. And I think that after talking with so many people on this series, Speaker Series, and also on my own podcast is that what I what I hear from treatment professionals is, you know, the child who’s misusing the substances or living that high risk lifestyle is probably the most acute one in the family or the one who is showing the most symptoms, the symptoms have caused this to really come to light. But it’s not just them, right? It’s, it’s everything surrounding them. And so there’s, you know, one way to look at it is yes, this is causing a lot of chaos in your life. But it’s actually an opportunity that your family gets to say, Okay, we need to address some stuff here. And if you can do that, and then get some of these tools in place and get some really good help, professional help, then the whole family heals. It was that one child’s actions that We always think of as so bad, right? We always think, Oh, this is the bad kid, this is the kid who needs to get fixed. Right? We should be thanking them and saying, Wow, you were the one whose symptoms get flared up so much that it caused us to look at this and say we all need to change. So I think it’s just a nice way to reframe that random being the problem that needs to change.

Cathy 10:27
Right. I love that you said that Brenda, because I know with my family’s journey during the whole wilderness process, and that was when we first learned that this wasn’t just an individual process with our kids. It was a family process. And it was hard at first to look at my own behaviors. Their dad looked at his own behaviors, and really how we all contributed. And I know people thought we were really crazy for being grateful for the whole experience, because it was really, really tough at times. Yeah. But that in hindsight, and I think all three of us can agree here, right? It was just such a great experience and the relationships we have as a family right now, they’re just, I wouldn’t trade them for anything. We’ve learned so much on having a great relationship. And I think also, what Brenda, and I want to talk about with CRAFT is those those skills, transcend to all of our relationships, not just with our kids that are using that with our friendships and our family relationships, and really an amazing skill set.

Mary 11:37
It’s interesting, while you’re talking, my daughter has is has been dating a guy for almost two years. And, he has some anxiety issues, you know, just nothing that’s he’s an anxious person, let’s say. And, uh, probably about eight months into it, he was with my, my daughter, and then my son, and me, and he was in our kitchen, and we were having like, a little moment, right? And we might my daughter and son and I start processing it, you know, in a way that you only do if you’ve been through this experience. And we’re like, Well, you know, one, I think one said, I just, you know, that really felt to me, like I was being attacked. And you know, the other one is like, Well, I wasn’t really attacking, I was just, you know, this new boyfriend is like, standing back looking at us. And he’s like, this is the best thing ever. You guys just slid right through that little moment. So it’s kind of become this joke with a lot of our friends and family friends. They’re like, Yeah, you know, let the Davidson’s manage this. You can just watch him slide right through an argument. Doesn’t work all the time. But it does. But it is it’s a to me it’s a gift. I think it’s it’s that honest, open kind of transparency that catch things right away, instead of letting them fester.

Brenda 12:55
Well, I think that’s important to know, I just, I think of myself, eight or nine years ago, and if I had heard this conversation to know that there could be some really beautiful things that come out of this experience, I think it would have really helped me versus all I could see in that time was the negative and the bad and the hard. I did not see any positives coming out of this situation at all. So I’m really glad that you said that. And gave such a beautiful example. Because it is true, just some really tangible things that haven’t happened in your day to day life, that when you’re in the thick of it, and if somebody’s listening to this, they probably are in the thick of it. And they’re wondering, should we be considering wilderness therapy? Or what do we do? And how do we find help? And so for if that is, you know, what somebody’s going through, I think it’s important to know, it might take a while. But there could be some really great stuff that comes out of this. So it’s kind of you know, that wait for it, you know, just you go through what you’re going through, and it is really hard and there can be some amazing stuff at the other end.

Mary 14:08
Right, I agree. So, it’s one thing that we kind of looked at to also was the stigma, right, the stigma of families needing help, and we, we can kind of bounce around, you know, if I’m jumping onto something else, we’ll go back to it. But I think there’s this with the stigma. You know, the secret hidden, right? The nobody wants to really talk about it out loud, even though in my opinion, I think everybody around us knew what was going on. So, you know, we were trying to hide anything we weren’t getting away with it. But I also think the other thing that’s important to talk about is like the guilt and shame that’s attached to it or can be attached to it. And I think that was something that I learned more in wilderness than and my son did the order kind of wrong, he did a residential treatment facility first than wilderness, and then a therapeutic boarding school. So it was it was during wilderness when all of that comes together, and you actually start talking about the family as one, you know, instead of the identified patient. So I don’t know if you guys want to touch on that a little bit, you know, when I think we are making the decision, you you’re just like.

Cathy 15:29
Yeah, this boy, what a topic. For my family. It was such a tough, tough topic. I mean, both of our kids were at very prestigious college prep schools. And from the outside, you know, everything looked really great. You know, we were a family that ate dinners together, coach teams, did everything. Then there was this ugly, little secret of the addiction that was going on. And, shame not only from myself as a parent, but also my kids, you know, which I’ve learned afterwards, and I know some that might be listening to this may not know that, but the kids who are really struggling with substances are dealing with a ton of shame right now. And that all contributes to really, I felt frozen, paralyzed to actively seek any kind of help. I think I spent more time asking friends, or family is this normal behavior? To which many replied, yeah, probably normal, either. Even if they were alarmed at the behavior, you just can’t even go to the idea that my kid might really need rehab, wilderness or whatever that is. And so the stigma was really something that for our family kept us from actively seeking help, when we first noticed the issue, for several years. Yeah, and that was a tough, tough part.

I think that’s heartbreaking to me that, you know, if our kids were diagnosed with leukemia, or diabetes, or a brain tumor, we would be on that, all over it, like we just be out there. And it’s just so tragic, that you have something that is so dangerous. And so, you know, it is a I put it in the life threatening illness category, literally 100%. And we’re hesitant to, to find help for that and it’s so tragic. And so, I always try to tell parents to reframe that and think of this as leukemia, cancer, diabetes, whatever it is, and go all out and in finding the help that you need. You don’t have time to be, you know, shamed about it, and the world should not be shaming you about it, you did not cause this to happen, just like you couldn’t cause your child to have cancer. I think that is a really, really important point to say, do not hesitate. And, everybody is dealing with something. This just happens to be yours. And you need to just take it, own it, get help. There’s so many people that are willing to help and wanting to help and in the therapy and the programs that are out there and available are just incredible, you know, for dealing with what you would what you need. So the fact that we sit back, and we are, you know, ashamed about it is just, it just kills me. It just kills me.

It really is so tough. And I think to add on to that, Brenda, right. A lot of people will say, Well wait till your kid hits rock bottom, maybe your friends, know there’s a big problem and they’re saying, you know, just like they’ll hit rock bottom or whatever that is in today’s age. First of all, that’s such a dangerous, dangerous theory of hitting rock bottom. And I think I will say that there are some great, great programs out there that don’t believe in that concept anymore. It’s really antiquated especially with the drugs that are out there. Fentanyl is a killer. So, your child may try something a couple times and you don’t know if that second time could be the fatal dose. So rock bottom and there’s a different rock bottom for everybody. I like to think that if your kid is already experimenting with some pretty heavy drugs, they’ve hit the rock bottom. So, you know, now’s the time to really explore getting help. And to talk to your kids in a loving, compassionate way and say, you know, this just doesn’t seem healthy, and we want to help you get the help you need. And this is where CRAFT comes in. And, learning these skills and why Brenda created this amazing community, The Stream, that helps foster getting help for these parents and getting them on their way and get their families help.

Mary 20:39
Alright, so I want to talk about The Stream and The Woods in a second. But I want to go back, I want to touch on this one, too, because I think what happens is, so you find out that your child has has dabbled in something, how does a family know? What are their what are the steps? When do they know we need to talk to a therapist, we need to talk the school counselor, we need to talk to the doctor, we need to we need to go all the way and get him in wilderness. You do hit guys have any insight on that? Or what the conversations look like leading up to that?

Yeah, definitely the, you know, when you start to see that, I think what we, what I always say is whatever you’re seeing, that’s probably about 10% of what’s actually going on. And I know that is not what parents want to hear, because they feel like oh, no, we have a really good relationship. And he would tell me if it was more than that, and even if he had a problem. So I think if if you are seeing things, you’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg. And I think the other really important thing to recognize what that is, if you are seeing some substance use even it’s partying, and you know, well, I think you smoke some weed on the weekends, that is doing something for your son or daughter. And if you’re not finding out what it’s doing for them, then you’re just ignoring the big portion of the iceberg that’s underneath the water. So, to your question, you know, what do we do? The first step is definitely not I gotta get him into wilderness therapy. The first step is having that conversation to say, Hey, I’ve noticed you, I noticed you’re a little different, fill in the blank, before you go to school, when you get home from school, after you’ve been out with your friends. I’ve noticed you’re a little different. How are you feeling? What’s what’s going on with you and just start that dialogue. It’s not, I know you’re smoking pot, I know you’re doing this, I’m taking away your phone – that is going to shut down any opportunity that you have to start building a conversation around this. And that’s what you really want to do is build a conversation around it so that it isn’t, once every three months we’re gonna sit down and have the talk about drugs. We were just gonna weave this into all of our conversations. Kids know that fentanyl is out there, they need to know that we know what’s out there. And just start talking to them about, hey, I noticed you’re different. You know, what does weed do for you? If you do know that they’re using? What is it doing for you? And so that’s part of CRAFT is really the biggest part about understanding why are they doing what they’re doing, because you don’t do things unless you’re getting something out of it. So, if smoking weed or drinking alcohol was like touching a hot stove for them, they wouldn’t do it. There’s obviously a reason that they’re doing it. You want to start those conversations and exhausting every local opportunity that you have because having your child as we all know, leave the home is very traumatic. It’s heartbreaking. It’s really, really hard and sometimes it is absolutely the right thing. But that’s not where you want to start. So really pulling in as many local resources as you can if that’s a therapist or a mentor or there’s APG’s which are Alternative Peer Groups, where kids who are trying not to use substances kind of hang out together. So there are those options. But I think it’s always also a good idea to have some more extreme options in your back pocket because fentanyl today is in everything. You know, what I say everything with an asterisks because if we’re being super scientific about it, that wouldn’t be true. But if your child is getting any sort of substance from the street, so if they’re buying Xanax or Percocet or oxy, and it is not coming from a pharmacist, it will have fentanyl in it. It is so addictive that it can take weeks for kids to get addicted, not months or years. So, that’s another reason why we wanted to talk about this the power that parents have, and the influences that you probably aren’t prepared for this, no one is, no parent kind of starts when their kids are eight, learning about how to talk about substance use. So you’re unprepared, it happens really fast, they can get addicted very quickly. And all of a sudden, you find yourself in a situation where you’re like, Whoa, my kid is way off the rails. I know they’re using some really scary things and I have no idea what to do. So that’s why we try to work really quickly with parents to say you can get some of these skills really quickly and start using them. And the best one to start with is just having a conversation. And that means you have to get over some of that stigma and shame and fear and awkwardness and weirdness yourself to say, okay, I’m going to do this, I’m going to have this conversation, it feels so uncomfortable. And Cathy and I always say, would you rather be uncomfortable with a child who’s using substances, then even more uncomfortable, because your child isn’t with you anymore. And that is really the reality today, unfortunately, of what’s happening.

I understand that very much. I think, you know, the importance to of what you just said, is to have the conversation. Right? You know, we’ve both we’ve all mentioned already on this, this podcast, that the frustration is really high, right, you’re scared, I was terrified. And in the beginning, I was just downright mean, I would you know, we were yelling, we were screaming, we were accusing, we were doing all of those things. And I think if you can find the tools, which it sounds like what you guys are offering, to have conversations, not to say you will go nowhere for a month or you will, you know not have your computer or you know, what is wrong with you, or all of those things that really just kind of amplify the situation. So I think that’s one really big, valuable point that’s been made so far. Is there more on the CRAFT approach or the CRAFT training that you want to touch on? Before we start talking about, I want to hear about The Stream and The Woods.

Cathy 28:09
Cathy, you want to give it a couple of other examples.

Yeah, I think something that was really impactful for me is something that we call the PAUSE, and that is literally stopping, you know, and before reacting. For me, oh my gosh, I was so great at reacting. I probably the gold medal in that one. So that is a really great tool. I’m trying to think of a specific situation. But really, if you’re just having something that’s happening, even if your kid just did something or said something to you, and you think that you’re gonna react big to it, just pause, walk away. You could always react later, you know or not react, you could always act later.

Mary 29:11
When I began doing that at some point, and when it might it, I first started using it. I don’t remember which one of my kids it was but I shut up, I pause like, I hit the pause button as hard as I could. And they literally looked at me and like, what just happened? What is wrong with you? Why aren’t you talking and I was just it’s uncomfortable. But I’ll tell you it’s so effective.

Cathy 29:43
It’s effective. It is and I agree, like the first time I did it, I guess my kid was like, Hey, what are you doing? And you know, and then that actually gave me the opportunity to say you know what, I just need a little bit of time. And you know, and it was great to be very open and honest. Another tool that I love that you can learn in CRAFT is the opportunity of when to speak to your child. You know, it’s so great to have these conversations, but we call them red lights or green lights. And so, if your kid is high, they come home late, they’re high, they’re tired, they’re hungry, whatever, you maybe you’ve had a couple glasses of wine, that is a definite red light situation, do not take that opportunity because you think this is right, this is the only time I’m going to see them. Because the reality is even if that is the only opportunity, you’re going to see them right then, most times, that’s just going to end up in a big blowout fight. And then it it, you’ve just dug a deep, deeper hole. Try to look for those greenlight opportunities where you’re both rested, you’re both home, and it might be a five minute drive in the car and that’s when you could utilize what Brenda talked about just opening up a conversation. We’re not talking about real long, deep conversations. It could just be something not even related to their drug use. It’s just like, wow, you seem you know, tired today? Should we stop and grab a coffee? And that’s it. And you know, and go from there. So those are a couple little the CRAFT skills that I like.

Mary 31:18
Yeah, those are great. That’s great tips. We also have the invitation to change. Do you want to touch on that?

Brenda 31:33
Yeah, so the invitation to change is, I think the best way to explain it is it’s a model that was put together by the Center for motivation and change. Those are the people in that organization are the ones who wrote the book Beyond addiction. So they are psychologists and, you know, brilliant people who wrote the book, literally wrote the book that we all, you know, recommend and follow. And what it does is it wraps craft in a couple of other things, so that it becomes an entire approach so that it’s not just these set of skills, but it’s the set of skills along with some understanding. So there’s an educational component to it. Also, you know, thinking about radical acceptance, we have to accept that something is happening before we can make a change. So what the invitation to change is, is it’s this holistic approach that says, instead of forcing, trying to force something, and when you push, you know, if I put my hand up like this, and push, what are you going to do? You aren’t going to push back? You’re not going to just say, Oh, you’re right. I’ve been doing this wrong. Like that teaches you how to basically pull them to you, and have them start to come alongside you. So you approach this as a team, instead of head to head, head butting power struggles fighting, I cannot tell you how many I think we should their next business should be a drywall repair company because Oh, you how many moms and our dads say, well, my son punched a hole in the wall last night. I mean, it’s, it’s almost funny now because it happens so much. It’s not funny.

Mary 33:30
It actually does become kind of funny. I mean, we could take a survey on broken hands, what is it the boxers punch? A

Brenda 33:42
So it’s just a way to avoid all of that. Because again, you don’t have time with fentanyl in the market. You don’t have time to fumble your way through this and try to sort of hem Han around it and have these arguments you need to very quickly say, okay, head of head to head is not working, I need to get alongside my son or my daughter, understand what’s going on, and start to approach this as a team and say, Hey, let’s see if we can make some changes to get things a little more stable, a little healthier, a little less risky. And so that’s what that invitation to change approach is. So it’s not something that we created. It’s an approach that we adopted from CMC. It’s what you learn, if you read beyond addiction and follow their, they have a fabulous workbook for friends and family of people who are struggling with substance use. So that’s what we use as our material in in our communities.

Mary 34:41
Right, so speaking of communities, tell me more about The Stream in the Woods Community and the difference between the two and what you guys what happens in there.

Brenda 34:58
it’s basically it It was my idea to have a place online, where parents who have kids like ours could go and not have to feel ashamed not have to explain anything, minimize anything, where you could just go be yourself talk about what’s going on talk about the fact that your kid punched a hole in the wall and the police were in your living room, and no one’s gonna freak out about that and be like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And to sort of have that camaraderie and to have that, you know, companionship with other people who get it. And at the same time, learn these tools and the skills to make change in your family, because nobody wants to just sit in boohoo, and like, Oh, this sucks. And, you know,

Brenda 35:50
In other places, right, but, you know, you have to find ways to make change. And so I wanted a place where you could do all of that in one place where you didn’t have to go to this Facebook group, and then this church group in a basement or a hard chair, where, you know, it’s like, there’s all these disparate resources and The Partnership to End Addiction is a goldmine of information. And so we wanted to pull all of that into one space. So we we’ve done that, in The Woods, which is for dads, those who identify as dads, and that could be a dad, a stepdad, adoptive, you know, dad. And then The Stream is for moms. And so we we processes vary differently as men and women. And so we just need a place where we can not have to worry about well, how is he going to? Did I say that too weekly or too strongly or, you know, we write we don’t want to have to deal with any of that. So there’s just places where you can come and connect with somebody, find somebody who lives near you. So you can go grab coffee, come to a retreat, we do amazing retreats, where you can just go and be normal for four days. Yeah, and, and not not have that sort of big burden on your shoulder. So yeah, that’s what we do.

Mary 37:09
Well, I can tell you, as you guys are talking, I wish I would have had that, because we all know how exhausting it is. And we also know that it’s kind of lonely.

Brenda 37:21
It’s extremely lonely.

Cathy 37:23
It’s so lonely, it’s so lonely, and what was so great about, you know, these communities that that have come up, you know, the stream has been around a little longer, so it’s a little bigger. But what’s so great is all of these moms, we’ve been talking for a long time. And I know I went on my first retreat in 2021, I didn’t know any of, you know, I knew I knew their names. I saw them on Zoom, but it was like this instant camaraderie when we all got together, it was fabulous. And so having that connection, and and just total acceptance of, of us and and what it’s become from when Brenda first created these, this community to what it is now. I mean, we’ve got parent coaches that are inside of this community 24/7. So it’s almost like you’ve got an advisor, or you know, we call them advisors, but their parent coaches and someone will be there to help you, you’ve got a question, you’re gonna get somebody that’s going to respond. And I will tell you this, too, is these mothers are amazing. They have learned so much. And they have become these amazing, I call them parent coaches without the certificate, frankly, because they are just really amazing moms. And they’re able to share what they’ve done in their own families and what they’ve learned through the stream in our classes, and just being in community and connecting. It’s been wonderful.

Mary 38:55
But that is wonderful. I love it. Well, I’m sure you know, I could keep talking. I’m sure we all could keep talking but we got a sign that we need to we need to sign off. Is there anything else you guys want to bring up that I didn’t cover or we didn’t cover?

Brenda 39:10
You know, I think it’s, you know, obviously we’re we are big fans of Sky’s the Limit Fund and that’s why we’re here and that’s why we’re on the board. And I think it’s just important for parents to know that there are so many amazing resources, like Sky’s the Limit Fund, like the wilderness partner programs that we’ve partnered with and it can seem really overwhelming if you’re if you’re kind of new to this process I will call it I won’t call it a journey because journey sounds kind of nice it fun and adventurous and it’s not really how it goes. So we call it either a roller coaster. Emotional surprise party. That’s a good one Mary. But I think I would Just say know that there are people who have dedicated their lives to helping families like yours. And, you know, our founders have sky’s the limit fan Rochelle and Lani are just two of the most unbelievable people. And I think they’re a really good example and you Mary coming on as the executive director just to say, I’m dedicating my life and my career to helping families who need that help. And so don’t hesitate to reach out to, you know, obviously reputable programs who are going to be able to help you navigate through this, right, yeah,

Mary 40:37
yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, it is. It’s um, it’s a wonderful community. You know, all of it. The it’s, it’s something that I am I’ve dedicated my entire life to, you know, trying to help the families and the kids in crisis. So, yeah. All right, lady, you. Thank you. Good to see you guys.