Speaker Series: Full Episode Page

Marshall Rosenberg’s Non-violent Communication as a great resource for families to follow up with after the podcast.

Brenda 0:00
Hi, welcome back to our Speaker Series for Sky’s the Limit Fund. I’m Brenda Zane. I am the lucky board member for Sky’s the Limit Fund who gets to have great conversations with people from the field of wilderness therapy. And if you’re not familiar with Sky’s the Limit Fund, the reason we exist is to help provide access to wilderness therapy and support for families who are struggling with having a young adult or a adolescent child who’s dealing with mental health with substance use issues. And so we exist on the donations of our amazing foundations and organizations and individuals who donate to us and allow us to do this work. So we’re glad that you’re here. You’re gonna hear from Jason McKeown today who is the CEO of Seuss of the Carolinas, a wilderness program in North Carolina. And we are going to have a really great conversation about words and talking, and how difficult that can be sometimes for parents when our kids are struggling and how important it is. So really excited to bring on Jason. So welcome.

Jason 1:18
Thanks, Brenda, I really appreciate it. I’m excited to be here.

Brenda 1:21
I am, too. I love this topic. Because I think it’s the thing that, wow, it seems so easy. And it’s such a struggle sometimes as our kids get, you know, either in risky situations, or we just feel disconnected. And suddenly our words go away. communication breaks down. There’s kind of this elephant in the room. Nobody’s saying anything. So I cannot wait to have this conversation and get some tips that I might steal for myself as well. So really glad to have you here. Why don’t you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be doing what you’re doing? And then we’ll dive in?

Jason 1:59
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’ve been a licensed marriage and family therapist for over 20 years. And in the process of doing so I actually started as a clinician working with adults with substance abuse. And many of their stories were that of which substance abuse was starting during their adolescent and teen years. And after a couple years, it kind of hit me if I could intervene earlier in their life, that maybe we could prevent a lifetime of hurt sadness and poor choices, struggles for them, as well as their family. So began working with adolescents and discovering how just kind of amazingly powerful the wilderness can be as an experiential way of helping teens learn more about themselves and how to show up in life. And so I actually started its use of the Carolinas way back in the day as a primary field therapist, and got a chance to firsthand work with kids struggling with addiction, depression, anxiety, and trauma. And from then I’ve just kind of moved on to helping families as well, and then ultimately getting to be the CEO of a great program.

Brenda 3:09
Wow that’s so cool. So you’ve really seen all the whole spectrum. And I love how you when you look at the the adult who’s struggling, and you think, wow, if we could have it’s there’s a waterfall analogy that arose that I’m sure you know, that I always think about when when you think wow, if we could have just reached them back here, we could have prevented them from getting here. So that’s really great perspective that you have having seen it from both sides. And then seeing the family dynamics that come into play with that too. So you have great, a great full spectrum perspective of it.

Jason 3:47
Thank you.

Brenda 3:49
Nice. Well talk to us about words and power that they have, and why this is something that you’re really passionate about.

Jason 3:57
Yeah, I’ve noticed over the years, both in working directly with adolescents in wilderness, but also in working with families, how communication matters, and in ways that are kind of subtle, yet really powerful. You know, I’ve seen times where an adolescent feels like they have really low self esteem. They feel like they’re constantly in a sibling shadow. And then a parent accidentally calls them by the name of their brother or sister, that’s the golden child and not theirs. And you can just see the life and sadness kind of kind of come into their world as a part of that, and how we as parents, who, although this is changing very quickly, kind of grew up in a very analog world. And we have very digital kids. And not only does that change our environment, but it changes the way that we take in information. Back in the day. There’s this piece of understanding and talking through things where now things move so much quicker so the communication changes and becomes a lot more relative, it becomes a lot more telling or talking at verses with. So there’s just many things that have changed. And sometimes that can catch us off guard as parents, because that’s not how we would ever talk to our parents, but realizing that they grow up in a world where people talk that way to each other all the time, in media online, anywhere they look, really. And so helping them understand that there’s a communication gap between us and them as parents and figuring out how to shorten that gap as much as we can, in our words. And it’s, it’s been impactful in so many ways I remember, or I guess maybe I could say something important for us to know as parents, is it during those teen years is really an identity formation time for our kids. Who am I? You know, what, where do I come from? Where am I going? There’s just all of these big questions about their identity. And as parents when we communicate about a particular task, it gets filtered through this identity piece for them. And as an example, I remember a mom sharing one time that she, her daughter was really upset and went and talked to her for a while. And when she finally got her daughter to open up, she said the other day, when you called me a pig, it really hurt. And mom was blown away. She was like, What are you talking about? I never called you a pig. And she, you know, began to backtrack and realize, she walked into her daughter’s room and said, This room looks like a pigsty. But instead of that being sunk in for the team, the teenager filtered through this identity filter, which is if this is a pigsty then therefore I’m a pig, you just called me a pig. And now all these feelings kind of flood around that. And the mom was just like, I never realized that my mom said that my room was messy all the time to never really went there. But this generation does and can sometimes and so our words really do matter both in ways that they can kind of cut but also in ways that they can heal as well. Sometimes the way that we can frame something a little bit different means we’re not going to be faced with as much resistance or be faced with challenges that could come along the way. And sometimes we find that that ability to cooperate, collaborate and and get to a common goal together with her teens, is actually sometimes a little bit easier when we can pick the right the right word, the right phrase that can really help it sink in for them.

Brenda 7:35
Yeah. Well, I know, as a parent of a couple for kids, I often wish that I had a little translator on my shoulder that could help translate what because I think sometimes, as parents, we say something and like you just gave the example with the pig. Somehow it doesn’t land. Right. But but we often don’t know that. And so I think it’s really helpful. And I’m hoping that you have some tips for us on how do we make sure that what we’re saying is landing the right way. And also, sometimes it bounces back at us in ways that probably our kids don’t mean to that feels like you, you talked about how it can feel really bad. Like it’s we think I would have never spoken to my parents that way. What are some of the things that you recommend parents can do to improve to, like you said, shorten that gap a little bit?

Jason 8:34
Yeah, absolutely. Well, there, there’s quite a few things. You know, we could talk about communication for a really long time, but definitely kind of talked about and pepper and some areas that we can all all grow in as parents and keep in mind that again, it is not to say that our words cause damage to our kids, but that by being mindful of our communication, we can hopefully create more connection with them in that regard, because oftentimes, even as parents, we share something out of worry, concern fear for their safety. And then they feel talked to add a field, a judge, they feel all of these things, which is never our intention, right? It just doesn’t land. Well, the way that you said it. So, I’m excited to share some things I’ve learned that kids have given me feedback on that my own children have given me feedback on that really kind of helped me along the way as well. But before we dive into that, Brenda, I appreciate you saying like, needing a little translator back there. Um, you know, oftentimes I hear parents say a lot like, well, this worked for me, like my parents said this to me, and it worked for me. And what I find is even if you have more than one child, you almost need to find the language that works in that relationship specifically for you. And then it might be it might work very differently and a different relationship with a different child. I, here’s an example. I have a daughter, very organized. She’s a planner, I say, hey, let’s get organized and talk about our day tomorrow. And she’s excited to pull out her planner, and do all the things in order to get ready for the next day. I do that with my other daughter, though, I get the eye roll, the shutdown and defeated and power struggles and all the things, you know, but when I can come to her and say, What are you looking forward to doing tomorrow? And she starts to get excited about all the things she wants to do. And then I say, Well, what are the some of the things you also need to do tomorrow as well, and then kind of peppered those. And then I say, I know you’re not excited to do those things. But doing those things do what for your life? And then she’ll say something like, well, then you’re not going to nag and you know, get on to me about it. And I’m like, yeah, and that when you know, so we’re able to kind of talk through that in just a very different way. But they both end up having a plan for the next day. And it’s done in a language that each of them can be receptive to. So you know, if you have two kids, you might have to kind of be bilingual in that way of finding the communication that works well for each one.

Brenda 11:11
Yeah, that’s tricky, too. It takes a very tuned in parent to pick up on those nuances of, I almost see it as like a dialect like, well, we speak this one language in our family of respect or whatever kind of the guardrails that you have for how you communicate. But then this child has this dialect, and that one has that dialect. And, and also, if you throw something like ADHD into the mix, yes, that just yeah, that’s a whole other deal.

Jason 11:39
Oh, yes, very much. So it’s a very short and quick dialects. Can can be a lot. So yeah, so with that, I would say, you know, one, one kind of tip I’ve learned along the way is how important it is to really check as parents that we’re not talking at our kids, but really talking with them. And it’s we’re still covering the same topics of information. But it’s from a different position, when we when, when we think about talking with someone, we think about like being side by side with them, versus me being in front telling you what to do kind of piece. And it’s a big kind of shifts and ways of looking at it is you know, are we kind of task focused in our relationship, and our communication will be more relational and our communication. And oftentimes, due to the fast paced pneus of life and having multiple kids in short times together, we’re trying to cram as much and so what happens is, we tend to become very task focused. And that can definitely have our kids feeling talked at versus spoken in that way. And so when it comes to kind of the Tao at something, I’ve really noticed his changed more and more in our society due to time that we kind of go right to the towel, telling people what to do do this, do that, okay, then you need to do this other thing, instead of moving to that position of asking, and then asking can be a great way of slowing it down, making it more relational and more collaborative. And, you know, it’s kind of ironic is parents due to time crunches, we get into a lot of telling to our kids, but if our kids ever did a whole bunch of telling back Mom, take me here, Mom, do this Mom, give me 20 bucks, you know, what happens is we’re like, I’m feeling a little disrespected, don’t talk to me that way. For them, especially kids on the spectrum, or that might have some ADHD, they’re really just mimicking the patterns that they see around them in school on technology. And so they get a little surprised why everybody can tell them what to do. But then it feels disrespectful if they tell other people what to do. And, you know, there comes times when we do need to tell our kids to do something for sure. But it’s helpful if we don’t start there first, but really start with the ask. And so, you know, as a small example, because relationship is really built in the in the moments, you know, not the big things, but sometimes the small things is where things are built, that, you know, if I’m asking my child to you know, help unload the dishwasher, that might feel very different for them than telling them to unload the dishwasher. It allows me you know, if I say unload the dishwasher, I’m probably gonna get some pushback right away. If I ask them too, then they might do it. They might get pushed back. But if they get pushed back then I can still talk with them about, you know, what, what’s up about not wanting to unload the dishwasher, maybe they’re busy in the middle of something. You know, maybe maybe they don’t really know how, in some ways maybe they don’t like sorting the silverware or whatever. But then we can continue to have the conversation and keep the relationship open. And then we can have that piece on. Well, how about you grab the all the dishes on The top shelf, I’ll get the ones on the bottom, or I can get the silverware if you can get the rest kind of piece. And sometimes they really do need to unload the dishwasher. And then at that point, we can say, I hear you’re in the middle of something, can we commit in the next five minutes coming back and doing it, and then I’m going to ask you to unload the dishwasher. So now my ask becomes a little bit more of a towel in that way. But it allows for the communication of the task to not undo the relationship. And oftentimes, we will put the task before the relationship. And this allows us to maintain the relationship while also encouraging and moving towards the task and complete.

Brenda 15:42
You know, it was insightful when you said, you know, if you do get the push back, maybe they don’t know how maybe they don’t like the, you know, especially like you said, kids on the spectrum, or kids who are high sensitivity, you know, touching all that silverware, touching all of that stainless steel can feel like a lot. So I like that you sort of, I think it can be helpful to think through why am I getting the push back instead of just Oh, I’m getting pushed back. So that that was really that just kind of stood out to me like, oh, yeah, there’s there could be a reason, like a very good reason that we could be curious about, so. Yeah, nice. I like that. Okay, so we’re gonna ask not task.

Jason 16:23
You got it? Yes. I love that. And you mentioned something beautifully, which kind of comes to the, to the next tip, which is that curiosity. You know, in the moment that I asked my child to do something, and I get pushed back, I instantly go into my own stuff, a feeling disrespected or unappreciated as a parent versus that place of curiosity, like, what is keeping them from doing this? Is it a time thing? Is it a flexibility of moving from the tasks or on to the dishes? Or is it a capability? Is it a skill set, they don’t feel confident, and so they want to push back and avoid doing it. But that curiosity really can allow us to step into the relationship with our child in a way that creates connection, versus this power struggle that we oftentimes can get into. So I like to think of it is how we can show up with curiosity, instead of contempt. And what I mean by that is sometimes the moment we get pushed back, we instantly kind of go into a little bit of a judging kind of place as a parent of, you know, you’re not doing that, right. You’re being lazy, like, you know, I do all of this stuff for you can Can I ask just this one small thing? Can we just do this without fighting? Can we just get in the car and get to school, you know, whatever it might be. And what happens is that curiosity goes out the window. And what we’ve learned through attachment research, is that curiosity is one of the most important parts of secure attachment in a relationship. And the moment that we’re about to step into an insecure attachment, and conflict into a relationship. Curiosity is the first thing that disappears. And so as parents, if we want to stay in that secure kind of attuned relationship, the more we can stay curious versus kind of judgmental, or in that kind of contempt resentful, like, oh, here we go. Again, we’re gonna fight over the trash being taken out, or, you know, I, I see they’ve got something in their backpack or their jacket that they’re not supposed to have that they or whatever it might be, we instantly go to that place of reactivity and resentment, confusion, frustration, versus curiosity. And so I learned that a lot in wilderness around, you know, instead of judging the behavior and being like, Well, why are you why are you vaping? Why are you doing pot? Why are you doing that? No, whatever it might be? The bigger question then becomes a curiosity state. What are you dealing with in your life that feels so heavy, that this feels like the solution for it? And that’s where what questions and things can come from us, when we move to that place of curiosity. And when we’re in a place of curiosity that our kids don’t feel as judged. And we get an opportunity, possibly for them to be more vulnerable, and open and honest about what those things are, and why those exist in their life versus just how can I get you off my back and do a better job hiding it next time?

Brenda 19:22
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I love that. I want to repeat it back because I want to make sure I got it. What are you dealing with? It’s so heavy that makes this the solution is that? Yeah, that is really I just think if I had said that to my son, when he was struggling with substances instead of why are you doing this? Can’t you see you’re killing me? would have just been incredible and I guess then you have to be really ready to receive the answer that they’re gonna give you because that that can get you a pretty powerful answer, I would imagine.

Jason 19:59
Yeah. Yeah, I don’t remember the movie. Exactly. I think it’s like bringing down the house or something. That’s Steve Martin and Queen Latifah. And, and she’s a nanny. And, you know, his daughter snuck off to a party, and he’s ready to go in there and just give her the what for. And the nanny is like, if you go in there and do that, she will never talk to you again. And so he goes in and just listens and is curious. And she’s so open and appreciative that she didn’t get barked out, but just really kind of connected with. And then she gives him a hug. And like, Thank you, Dad, for hearing me, because there’s so much more I need to tell you, and his eyes are just like, what, you know, I’m barely hanging in here with this, you know, I think there’s this piece of like, yes, sometimes we have to be ready for what they’re going to share, the better that they share it so that we can move to that place of working with it together or finding the right supports for them to carry and hold those things differently. And with more supports in that way. And that also means as a parent, that might be something I need to carry, and then go to a support group or someone that I can get support with, to kind of help me hold that information of what they shared, instead of trying to fix it for them, or feel like now I’ve got to carry their burden or their weight for them. So that support when our kids open and share with us is just as important for us as parents as it is for our child.

Brenda 21:27
Right. Yeah, I was gonna say so if you’re curious, and you are getting this information, then then there’s the aspect of what do I do with it?

Jason 21:36
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, to that point, and again, I love how you share things back because you know, it that point that allows us, I think you share it too, like, ask more questions from that state of curiosity. And so, you know, the next thing I would share is, when possible, can we replace our statements with questions, and allows us to move to a place where we can stay connected, stay curious. And on occasions, I find that adolescents again, in their identity formation, they also don’t want to be told how to fix something, they really do want to discover it or figure it out on their own, especially as they become an older team. So you could give them as parents a lot of wisdom and tell them what they need to do. And it would be great. But they’re not going to take it because it wasn’t their idea, right? And that’s, that’s a hard pill to swallow as parents. But when we can ask questions, then we can help kind of put them in the field that helps them then figure out the answer for themselves. And sometimes that’s the most loving thing we can do as a parent is not to give them the answer, but to pose the right questions, so they can discover the answer for themselves. And I think, you know, that, you know, in this gets a little bit into the ADHD world, the spectrum world executive functioning, sometimes anxiety and depression. But you know, as an example, if I, you know, this would maybe be a younger adolescent example, that if I was to say, like, oh, it’s bedtime, you need to go up to a, b, and c, then what they do is they get used to Okay, I’m going to do this until somebody comes up and tells me and makes me go do A, B, and C. But instead of telling and just replacing that statement with a question of, hey, what time is it? Oh, it’s nine o’clock? Yeah, well, what do we do at nine o’clock each night? Oh, get ready for bed? Yep. And when we get ready for bed, what are the things that we do? It starts to engage that part of their brain, to then start to think to do those things themselves and not always require us doing the prompting of that thing, which can be really frustrating as a parent to do it day in and day out. So the more that we can pose those questions, the more we can transition them to being self reliant, and start to think through those things themselves, even to the point where, like, with one of my daughters, I’ll say, it’s that time of the night, you know what I’m gonna say, or you know, what I’m gonna ask, and she’s like, I know, and then, you know, kind of steps up and does it. So it went from all this prompting to just kind of posing that question, and then it kind of triggers it. And then the hope is, is that eventually don’t have to do it at all right? And that they’re being self reliant and able to do that on their own. But you know, even socially or with challenges in our kids lives to post those questions like, Wow, that must be a really tough situation with that teacher or that friend, or that really puts you in a difficult situation when your friends wanting to do that and you’re not wanting to like that can be a lot of peer pressure in that way. How do you think you want to handle that? versus saying, you know, what you need to do is dot dot dot, but posing first how you want to handle it and you’ll be surprised. You know, sometimes they’ll give a really reactive answer like how I’m gonna go punch. So So in the face, and then we go, okay, well, that’s an option. What are some other options? You know, but we still stay in that state of questioning, to help them explore that there’s more than just the one reactive solution they’ve come up with. But it doesn’t feel judgmental. And if they’re really, really set on that, then we can come back and say, Well, what would the consequences in your life be? If you did that? Kind of those questions can be really, really powerful.

Brenda 25:27
Yeah, that’s a great one. How do you want to handle this? It’s so hard not to give that answer, not to give the direction. And so I like that a lot as a tool to use that you could almost think of that as your little coach sitting on your shoulder. How do you want to handle that? And then the follow up question of or the follow up statement, I guess of? Well, that’s one option, because like you said, often, the first response that you get might be really emotional really unthought through. So to continue to pull out of them, okay. That’s, that’s an interesting one, what would be another one, I can see that with an older child who might be making some really bad choices. Because I think a lot of times the response, or the statements that we make are just out of fear. We’re just afraid if our kids, you know, go is really struggling with some mental health or really struggling with substances. It is so scary. And so we’re just wired as parents, I think to fix. And so we think we know the answer. So it takes a lot of discipline to ask a question, instead of making that statement. So yeah, I can see, see how that would yield better results, but very difficult to do.

Jason 26:52
Very difficult to do in the moment. Yeah, it is a big ask for us as parents. And if it’s if it’s helpful for anyone to know, though, that when we want to emotionally react, and we choose to stay in this state with our kids of curiosity, making it about the relationship, not the task of posing questions, what we’re saying is, is don’t yield to the emotion and react to it, but really find a way to respond. And isn’t that kind of the pattern, or the formula that we want to model for our kids is when those emotions become big, don’t make major life decisions in that moment on it, feel those feelings, move through them, and try to find a way to respond rather than react. And when we’re able to do that, as parents presently with them, it helps them learn and have a little bit of the roadmap on what what they can do in those moments as well. So if it’s helpful to think about as a parent, I’m modeling for my child, you know, how I want them to work through feelings and decisions and solutions in their life, and kind of show them that way. Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, that helps kind of pull me out of the grip of the emotional kind of piece and to being like, how do I want to model for them? How to work through these feelings and make a decision at the end?

Brenda 28:13
Yeah, I was gonna ask that. Because a lot of times with with kids who are struggling, the conversations are the moments that we have to connect with them can be highly emotional. How can we kind of break through that that highly emotional reactive drama that kids seem to thrive on the drama? But how do we have? How do we kind of get control of that so that we can be really thoughtful like some of these examples we’ve given are so good. But how do we have present the opportunity to have those?

Jason 28:52
Yeah, well, I think, I think a couple of things come to mind. But again, I think it’s a it’s an art that we develop over time with our kids. And, you know, there is a little bit of trial and error to find the right dialect or language with that particular child. But I find that most of the times, kids really want to be heard in those moments. And we usually come in ready to fix. And so by staying curious, during that emotion, even giving ourselves permission to validate the emotion, you know, if my child was like, I hate this teacher, they’re dumb, they’re stupid. They don’t know what they’re doing the worst teacher in the world. I don’t have to agree that this teacher is the worst teacher in the world. But I can agree that they’re really frustrated that that the relationship between them and this teacher is not working for them right now. You know, and ask them more about that and to really help them get clear on what it is that they aren’t liking about that relationship and how they would like it to be different. And so, but I’m not trying to go in and fix it. I’m certainly not calling the school and wanting to meet with that teacher and all of those things, and really just trying to be present with them in a state of curiosity, and not making it too much about the task, but more about the relationship. The other piece I would share is in that moment, there’s a great opportunity to help our kids really get clear about how they’re really feeling, which is oftentimes not the feeling they’re sharing, or that they’re acting out, that tends to usually be a surface emotion, to something underneath that. And so that was one of the points, I think that’s important is realizing that our kids really need help with an emotional vocabulary, they usually have about five feeling words, and they’ll rotate through those constantly. And if we’re honest, as parents, we’re usually overwhelmed, scared, and frustrated. And maybe a couple other expletive feelings in there as well. But we don’t have a huge emotional vocabulary as well. But what starts to happen is our kids start to believe that we’re always worried about them, or we’re always frustrated at them, because those are the feelings they see from us the most. And then we see them be angry all the time, or sad all the time, or blaming all the time, or anxious all the time. And if we can help them differentiate one feeling from another a little bit more, than we have an opportunity to really support them, and those feelings, and so being able to kind of say, you know, okay, you’re frustrated, but what’s another feeling that’s under there, like, I feel lost, I feel helpless, you know, you can find a feeling squeal or something to try to help them differentiate that that feeling. And then I would also say that sometimes this parents knowing when we hang out with our friends and our venting about our kids, and how tough parenting is. And they say, Well, you know, if you just take their cell phone away, that’ll fix everything. And you’re like, No one does that. And I’ve been there, I’ve tried that it doesn’t work, you know, because they’re trying to fix it due to it being uncomfortable, what I really need is for you to hear me, and then maybe later I’ll be ready for a solution. So as parents giving ourselves permission to be with, then walk away, go for a walk them do something to get calm and regulated. Hopefully, that’s healthy. And then later, let’s come back and start to talk about solutions. It doesn’t have to be kind of all in one setting. And then I would say for us as parents finding a way for us to speak our truth to them, and speak it kindly. And that usually means instead of being frustrated, if I’m really honest, I’m concerned. And so sharing concern instead, because that’s more of an authentic feeling to what might be going on, and being able to speak kindly. And what that does is it models, you know, some emotional vocabulary and models being vulnerable. And at the same time being able to do so in a way that says we’re still moving towards an action that can hopefully help the situation improve in that way. So I constantly come back to I want to talk with my child or patient or student about this, how can I speak that in a way that’s kind to them? You know, and whether that’s going over testing, whether that’s helping them with recovery, whatever it might be? How can we help them kind of speak that truth and speak kindly. And if we can do that, then encourage our kids to as well like, if you’re upset with me, as a parent, you can tell me that. But you can also do that in a kind way. And so oftentimes what our kids say is that the challenge, it’s how they’re saying it to us, and so we can again, help model for them. I want you to speak your truth. And I would really I could hear it better if it’s spoken kindly. And if we do that for them, and they do that for us, again, it shortens that that gap in our relationship, and they start to come to us and connect more.

Brenda 34:01
Yeah, the just that phrase, I can hear you better if you speak this way, could be really powerful. Because I think that says to our kids, I want to hear you. I do want to hear what you’re having to say. And I can I’ll be able to hear it better if you say it in this way. And then I do I reciprocate with the same. So well, such powerful information and I took a lot of notes. So I hope that if you’re listening, take notes because it is that little could be that little coach on your shoulder to help you through because I noticed such a challenge with our kids. And I think the emotional factor just plays in to get everybody riled up and nobody’s you know, saying what they really want to say in the way that they want to say it. So this has been incredibly helpful. And I think it is the foundation of just getting some of those relationships back on track with each others. So thank you for this. I can only imagine if you’re working with people over time, this has only been 35 minutes, and we’ve gained so much. So I think there’s so much value in working with somebody who’s trained in this, this information and these modalities to really give us tools as parents. So we feel a little bit more like confident and what we’re going to say and do with our kids. So thank you, Jason, this has been incredible. We’ll make sure there’s links to how people can find you in the notes, and it will have you back. So thanks for joining us.

Jason 35:40
Thanks, Brenda, for having me on. I really appreciate it and glad to share this information with you all and I hope families find it helpful. It’s all the little moments that create shifts that that bring us closer together.