Speaker Series: Full Episode Page

WinGate Wilderness | Chris Tarver 

Brenda 0:03
Hello, welcome back. We are here for another guest speaker series with sky’s the limit fund. I’m Brenda Zane. I am a board member with Sky’s the Limit Fund. And I have the honor of talking with some incredible guests on our speaker series. And today is no exception to that. A quick introduction to Sky’s the Limit Fund. If you’re not familiar, we’re a nonprofit organization that helps fund wilderness and make wilderness therapy access accessible to more families. So we have incredibly generous donors of your donor you’re watching thank you so much for the work that you do to help us take families who are really in a place of crisis. And young people who are in a in a place of crisis that might be adolescent, or a young adult and help them make that shift into wilderness therapy setting. It is not always an easy process. And so Sky’s the Limit Fund is really dedicated to helping those families through that process, not only with wilderness therapy, but also with coaching for the family and for that young person when they come home. So pretty unique. And we do the Speaker Series as a way to give you information. A lot of times when you’re in this decision, either you’re trying to decide if wilderness therapy is right for your family and your child. Or if you’re just sort of gathering information, it can be hard to find good information from people who are living in this form and modality of therapy every day, have years and years, often decades of experience. And so that’s what we do here is bring you that information. And today is going to be a great conversation with Chris Tarver from Aspiro Adventure Therapy. And Chris is a therapist there. He’s been working in wilderness for a very long time, I’m going to let him introduce himself a little bit further. So welcome, Chris. And thanks for being here with us.

Chris 2:05
Thank you. Thank you. I’m pleased to be here. So yes.

Brenda 2:10
I am really excited. I took a peek at what you’re going to be sharing with us today. And I think it is a conversation that we just don’t hear enough about fathers and sons. And I guess fathers and kids in general, but why don’t you do a quick introduction, I did see that you are originally from Louisiana. And I’m wondering, how does a guy from Louisiana end up in Utah?

Chris 2:34
That’s a great question. Um, let’s see here. I I was born and raised in Louisiana, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And in graduated from from college from LSU. In I think 2005 or 14 or 2000, somewhere around there.

Brenda 2:54
Somewhere around that area.

Chris 2:56
Yeah, life. Life had given me some lemons and wasn’t going very well. And I was looking for some changes. And so I, I was saying, I loaded up my truck with everything I owned and moved to Utah. I think 2004 Yeah, moved in 2004. And was doing some more schooling in Utah, and someone told me about a wilderness program. And that I would might be a good candidate to work as a guide there. And so in 2005, I think around April, I started working as a guide. And I did that throughout the entire summer, into September. And then around September 5, Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. And I decided that I was needed more at home. And so I packed everything up again, after about a year and a half of Utah life and moved back to Louisiana. And about five or six months after getting home, maybe if that long, I met a young lady who’s my wife, Heather. And, and we started dating, and she had children, and I always want to get back to wilderness. But I figured I need to go back to school and I got a master’s degree in, in psychology at Southeastern and then realize that a master’s degree in psychology without a doctorate is useless. There’s not really much you can do with it. And so I went back to school and got a second master’s degree in social work. In this time, I married into two children. I older my older son, Zane, and Seth and then shortly after that we had Keegan, who’s now my 13 year old he was born right before I graduated with my master’s in psychology. And then my daughter cambrie was born right after I graduated with my master’s in social work. Wow. So you got to work on house and And then it was shortly after that, probably about three and a half years after I graduated, I met the man who was my mentor in wilderness before Shin Gallagher, and he was speaking at a conference that I was invited to go to. And just so happened, we ran into each other again, and wasn’t a couple of months later, he was offered me a job to come to Utah and Knapp and be alertness therapists, which was always my dream to get back to Utah. But I found a wife of four kids, I didn’t think it was gonna happen. And one was in one was a senior one was a junior. And then the other two are young, in elementary school and life had never left Louisiana, really to live outside of it. So I didn’t think it would happen. I turned down the job. And that was, I think, in June of 2016. And then in August 12 2016, our house took on 32 inches of water, I mean, five foot of water, on the coast of Louisiana, that dropped about 32 inches of rain. And then that process destroyed everything we owned, the schools were all destroyed, all the homes and two cities were destroyed. You may not have even heard of it because it wasn’t a named storm. The news doesn’t like something if it’s not named. Right.

Brenda 6:24
Right. So most of the brand attached to it.

Chris 6:28
No, nothing that was attached to it, except for the fact we lost everything. And so about three months into living with living with my parents, and a three bedroom home, a family of six, and my mom and dad, and my wife looked at me and goes, have you thought about that job? And you talk and I’d like to go somewhere dryer? And I’m like, Yeah, sounds good. So I called and the original position data was gone. But they said, No, we want you up here. Next thing, you know, I’m living in Southern Utah, and Knapp, Utah. And so I’ve been, I’ve been in wilderness here for a little over five years doing therapy for right around one to say 10 or 11. And, yeah, so that’s what I do.

Brenda 7:16
That’s what you do. So you’re just to clarify, so you’re one of the therapists that goes out to the field to work with kids during the week, because that’s kind of the model that if people have been watching this speaker series probably come to understand that kids are in most programs and some programs out in in a field, they may be hiking and sort of a nomadic model. And then therapist actually goes to them out in wilderness, which is so magical. So that’s what you do. Yeah,

Chris 7:45
our program I started off in nomadic I was a guide for a nomadic program. And then I originally started off as a therapist and a nomadic primitive program now is Spiro adventures a little bit different. They’re not nomadic, but they are they are, they are out in the wilderness, they stay in the wilderness 24/7. But we incorporate weekly itineraries where they may do mountain biking somewhere, or canyoneering. Or they may go hike in the mountains of Tabby or they may go they may go canyoneering or, or rock climbing or in the wintertime, they may do some skiing. And we utilize both the the nature part of and the wilderness part of therapy, but also the adventure part, which has been, you know, well documented. It really gives them some shifts every week, and just in different perspectives and, and challenges in different ways. So yeah, it’s very similar. And I go out on Mondays and Tuesdays, I do therapy with the kids, do my groups work with the kids, and then they go get to use what I teach them and what we work on in, in therapy throughout the week and different experiences in the group and the group model. Yeah,

Brenda 8:59
awesome. Incredible. I just love the model I, you know, having seen my son go through it, and just the transformation that can happen out there is incredible. And I know today, we’re going to be talking a little bit more about less less about maybe adventure therapy and more about the relationship between fathers and their children and specifically sons. And so I’d love to have you just share a little bit about kind of what frames that and then we can get into some of the details.

Chris 9:30
Yeah, I guess, you know, when I present this, I put my credentials this first a son, second, a father, third, a licensed clinical social worker, right. I believe to talk about this topic is is really important to me, because I do I do see the importance of who my father was. And I and I, and I hope that I have some in my relationship with my sons that I have some importance there. And one thing I noted in the last, you know, as I’ve been looking at who fathers are who men are in general, I mean, you really look throughout the 80s and 90s, early 2000s, the fatherhood was really kind of not looked down upon but marginalized. Right? Look at Homer Simpson, you look at, you look at Al Bundy, you look at who fathers became, we became a comic relief, really, for the family unit. We went to work, and we come back and we cause more problems in the family unit than we then we then we solve, we’re less of a integral part less of the whole part with mom, we disappear, come back, and we cause problems. And usually they create fun, funny moments for everyone else. And I understand it’s part of comedy, right? Bill Cosby may have had some run ins and some issues outside of his his TV show. But in reality, his TV show was one of the last ones that portrayed for a long time, a father who went to work and came home and actually provided and, and worked side by side with mom and gave a good example of, of hard work of work ethic of care, love, mentorship, teaching, and then it just kind of disappeared. And then you saw, I think you started to see reality, start to mimic the portrayal of fathers there, there’s terrible studies out there. One was done in 2015, that shows that less than 1% of commercials and TV shows that they studied and analyzed showed the father in a positive light.

Brenda 11:59
Wow.

Chris 12:01
Right. And that’s an interesting concept to look at. And, and so I started noticing, and when I was a guide in the field, was at 2005. I said somewhere around there. I noticed I was struggling with some of the young men that I was working with. I had a group of young men, I was the lead guide. And I really worked to connect. And I was in this group week after week after week, and I was struggling to connect with these eight young men. And one day, I was sitting on top the mountain and I’m watching the group, they’re about 20 feet below me. And I’m just sitting there thinking, How do I help these guys? What am I going to do? Why am I not connecting? I’m doing everything I know everything I can to connect and all of a sudden it hit me. You’re struggling because they’re a lot like you were and you’re not realizing it. And I was gonna start listening to them a little bit more. And I heard the same story. They were from very successful fathers and none of them felt like they they measured up. If you remember I said I moved to Utah to go back to school because life was giving me lemons. Life had not gone the way I wanted it. I was like 23 years old. I wasn’t progressing towards. I didn’t know what I was going to do for career. Life had really gone crazy. And I’m sitting there listening, looking at my dad who’s very successful. Right, a

Brenda 13:41
lot of pressure

Chris 13:42
that’s full. But my dad is not rich. My dad is at the time, was an electrician at a plant. But he was working in no one within that his industry, right. And he did what he was supposed to do. And even though some people think, Oh, well, I’m not super, I’m not a rock star. I’m not a surgeon. I’m not a lawyer. My dad was an electrician, right? An instrument technician. But in my mind, he was successful in the areas that I thought were important. He supported his family. He had a family. Right. He was doing everything he could to make sure we were successful. He loved us. He did everything he could and I’m just sitting there looking at him going. My dad who barely made it a high school eventually became a millionaire. Wow. Right. And so I’m sitting here looking at these young men below me about 20 feet below me, and I’m watching them. And I realized there’s a common theme between us that we need to discuss. And so I climbed down the hill and I began to talk to them about their relationship with their fathers. And almost every single one of those boys said the same thing I was feeling at the moment. I’m a failure. I don’t measure up. Right? How can I succeed? Am I ever going to be like that? And it began this idea in my head. In 2005 Have we as young men see our dads, whether we whether our dads are in our life or not, I mean, they could be a strange, they could have left the day we were born, they could have never, they could have not even existed as far as our moms go as our family goes. But there’s still there’s some kind of connection that every single one of those boys even though came from different backgrounds, they all experienced it, and they were all struggling with it. And I noticed that once I started discussing this with them, and building wellness, the steam, it was amazing how we connected. It’s amazing the work they did. That was in 2005. And like I said, I eventually left. And I didn’t forget about it, but it got placed in the back of my mind for a while, right. Because it wasn’t the pertinent thing. I said met my wife dealing with a hurricane, rebuilding, trying to help rebuild where I could, after Hurricane Katrina, going back to school, and then it was after I moved to Utah began to work in wilderness, it hit me again. Right, working with a young man that I call Sam. That same feeling came about but this time, it was different this time I had done my own work. So instead of being this countertransference kind of thing. It became more of a I got your number. I see what you’re struggling with young man, I can see it there were red flags me our first conversation. He’s telling me his dad’s a jackass is telling me my Dad, is this my dad is that and he’s going off about his dad. And I’m sitting there going, Oh, you got dad issues? Let’s talk about that. Right? Yeah, little by little, I found out how much pain this young man was in because he just felt like his dad was a superstar surgeon. His dad was a superstar college athlete, his dad and it goes back generation to generation of the superstar person. And this young man felt like I failed. I made a C It was in physical science in ninth grade, I will never measure up. And that making a C in physical science that he his world turned upside down. Right. So yeah, that that began a new journey for me regarding what I do. And how I how I treat young men is is I don’t ascribe them all this, this phenomenon or this? This issue, but it’s amazing how often it comes up. And that at that moment, I started doing more studying and developed the presentation hopefully soon to be the book. Sam, the son of a super superhero, the kid with no powers.

Brenda 18:18
Wow, it must be so great for those kids to have somebody see that in them. Because it doesn’t sound really counterintuitive. If if a kid is saying, you know, my dad is a jerk, you know, they’re they’re really putting their dad down and being very negative about them. It’s not intuitive to them think, oh, this kid really respects and, and looks up to their dads. So it’s It must be really interesting for those kids to have somebody like you be tuned into that and to be able to share that with them and relate in a way that can help them work through that.

Chris 19:00
Yeah, I think it is interesting. The the aha moment these kids have is very interesting. Sam himself. The moment when he wrote a letter to his dad, at the very end of the letter, he said, I know now that I’m not just your son, and you’re not the super human individual that I can’t ever ascribe myself to or even think to be like, instead you’re human just like me. We make errors. The key what I found is parents in general. We went through adolescence. I don’t know if you remember adolescence. Do you remember it? I do. It’s likely Yeah, it was pretty good at moments. It also could have been terrible. And there you’re trying to figure out emotions. You’re trying to figure out relationships. You’re starting to, you know, in an elementary school, everybody plays together on the playground. We’re playing kiss tag, we’re playing Chase, all the things that have been banned now. I don’t know if they play anymore, dodgeball, whatever we play. No, there’s no dodge. Today no matter how many broken bones I got in elementary school playing on the playground. And so those things shift towards middle school as we begin to click off as, as those hormones begin to take in puberty begins to hit, those things shift. And all of a sudden you’re stuck in adolescence. And you’re stuck in those high school teenage years, cliques begin to form who is your best friend now as part of this group over here, that you are not a part of and that you’ve lost your best friend, you don’t know who you are the uphill battle that it is to be an adolescent, and then you take the social media and the crap that we have today. Right, and it’s been exacerbated that entire adolescent experience, adolescence adolescent experience. And so a lot of times as parents, and I find myself doing this, as a dad, we get so caught up in tackling the next mountain of adulthood, making sure the bills are paid, making sure that I mean, I’ve got more hours and treating other people’s children some that I’m sometimes and I have with my own children, if I’m not careful. Right, right, right. And so I begin to try to climb mountains with kids that and join them on their journeys. And my own children sometimes are sitting there on their own mound, right? There’s little mountain their own struggling to get up at 13 years old. Like a year. Yeah. And I’m so focused, I look back and seeing struggle, like Oh, he’ll get it. It’s just a little mound. I’ve already done that when that suck, I remember. But I don’t think to go back and tell him that, you know, yeah. And so I get so caught up. So parents in general, we really sometimes lose focus of where our child is. And again, I’m not one that blames parents. I’m just saying that. Sometimes we get caught up. And so when you look at that father, son relationship, how does it How does it you know, one of my theories is dad goes away to work. Before the Industrial Revolution. My Dad and son would sit in the blacksmith and son usually learned how to be a blacksmith, right? Not only did he learn to work ethic, he learned to cuss with dad, he learned to yell with dad he learned to he learned to what it meant to screw up. He saw his dad in his weakest moments, he saw his dad in his strongest moments. Just a revolution comes all this came along. And all of a sudden, Dad’s walking out with a briefcase that leads for 910 hours doesn’t come home, sometimes for a week or two. Sometimes the whole day you get me the last two or three hours of daylight. Right? No. And in that time, I’m frickin veg out because I’m exhausted. Right? And what is the son see that son just see Superman leave the door, come back conquered the world comes home with money comes home with what he needs. Right? He sees him succeeding, he doesn’t see the failures. He doesn’t see what it took for dad to get there. And that’s what Sam learned in the letters between him and his father, as he and his father dealt with the same stuff. Yeah, Dad’s on a whole new mountain. And dad doesn’t describe talk about the mountains that the sun’s now to climb. And, you know,

Brenda 23:05
yeah, what do? What do? I mean, obviously, you’ve got kids who are in like in a program and a wilderness program and adventure program? What are the some of the things that a parent might see if this is happening? So if the kid is still at home? Is it the typical sort of, you know, substance use or aggression? Or what are the what are some of the indicators that this, this kind of disconnect might be happening?

Chris 23:33
That’s awesome. Great question. It’s funny. What what I find a lot of times is a huge disconnect between father or son. It’s what you were saying earlier, it sounds like sounds counterintuitive that I put you on this pedestal and you become, quote, unquote, God to me, right, you’ve become this person I’m trying to emulate, I’m trying to be like, and one of the things I looked at that really hit me hard was my own. My 1313 year old Keegan, when he was about three, I’m sitting there, you know, trying to work on my truck and I turn around and there he is, with his little Little Tykes car upside down with my drill trying to remove the wheels. I watch him mowing the grass with his little bubble mower behind me. And I watch him doing everything I’m doing. And I’m just so excited as a dad that he’s emulating me praying that he doesn’t emulate the things that that I do that are screwed up. And so what do I do I hide them. Right? Yeah, there’s a song, a country music song that talks about this right? About I want to be like you that I’m watching you. The last thing we sometimes want is our kids to see our greatest weaknesses because we’re afraid they’re gonna follow us. And therefore we hide them. It’s how many dads I work with. And so what are these kids do as they get older and they begin to see things and realize even if they don’t see the weaknesses, they like, holy cow, I can’t do that. I had one dad tell me, you know, I didn’t realize the daunting task my son was looking at when he started getting older as a teenager. We live in the Bay Area. And, and we’re everybody’s multimillionaires, I live in a neighborhood where homes are, you know, the smallest, maybe 10,000 square feet. And here I have my son, who is looking at me very successful in all these ways. Looking at me going how in the world am I going to get from a teenager living in a 22,000 square foot home? Or even a 9000? Or my case when I was a kid, 2400 square feet? How am I going to do this? Yeah. And so what they do is they begin to once they start to experience some failure within themselves and adolescence, what they begin to do is that anxiety begins to build anxiety, then bigger screens on depression. And so they start thinking, There’s no way I’m going to be like, Dad. And so what do they have to do, they have to destroy the idol. They begin to tear it down little by little, they begin to if they can’t find the weaknesses, they begin to develop the kryptonite themselves. And they begin to destroy Superman. And not only do they destroy Superman, but eventually start to find an idol that they can emulate. That’s easier. Right? A lot of times, they will begin to look for young men in their own life. Or older men in their life that are not quite as successful. There’s a lot of them struggling the same way they are. Right? We relate. And then all of a sudden, they start going down paths that are contrary and perpendicular to Dad’s path. And so when you ask what are the symptoms, I mean, it could be many things, it could be substance abuse it but what you really see as you start seeing a disconnect a disengagement. disengaging from from thought from their dad. And sometimes it’s dad’s fault, too. I mean, that’s, that’s part of dad going to work and not paying attention. And that’s why I really, when I’m doing this, what I’m trying to do is get Dad and son back on the same page, to where you know that maybe you should worry less about the mountain, you’re trying to succumb right now. And climb, maybe you should go back and get on the mound with your son. life a little bit.

Brenda 27:40
That’s so powerful. It’s it’s really something I can resonate with, personally, just as you were saying that I was like, yep, yep. Yeah, it was all just kind of saw that happen. So just kind of I know that it’s very in depth, and there’s nothing that could be resolved in in five or 10 minutes. But if that’s the case, what is the solution? For dads? Is it to be more vulnerable with their kids? Or what are some of the first steps that you try to kind of offer up to dads who might be trying to deal with this?

Chris 28:18
First of all, recognize where you are. In my presentation in the book, it’s, it’s, it’s called Bridging the Gap. Right? You’re both on two sides of a river. And it’s important that I start to bridge the gap and somebody has to make the first move, and nine times out of 10, it has to be dad. Right? And you have to start building the bridge one brick at a time, one block at a time back towards your son, he has to see that effort. So recognition that we’re on the wrong side that we’re neither one of us are on the same side of the river. Quit insisting that he come to your side of the river.

Brenda 28:57
I was gonna say it seems like that might take some humility, especially if you have a very powerful, very highly successful man who might not be used to doing that. Especially with a kid who is being very lovable.

Chris 29:15
Yeah, the one you want to choke every now and then. Yeah, that’s hard work. That’s right. I just want to choke him. I’m like, he probably wants to choke you too. Yeah. Dad. Yes, I was assigned, right? There are moments we want to choke each other. And that’s not acceptable. Not doesn’t need to happen. So let’s come up with a different solution and humility in recognizing the fact that your son is struggling seeing as a him as human. And that comes a little bit from the Harbinger principles, right. Have a heart at peace with your son. First. You’ve got to develop the heart at peace with your son before you can actually go in and then you got to work on building the relationship. And that’s the part of going back across the river. I I’ve, as I’ve been studying this, I found a, you know, a study. And Oh, heck, let me make sure I read her name right. Make sure I get this right. Anna Hawk gruff, I guess that’s how you pronounce it if I get it wrong, sorry. And if you’re watching this. She’s a doctoral candidate at Penn State. And I’ve been studying this and it’s hard to find studies, really good studies about fathers and sons. A lot of really, I mean, if you’re really looking for books about father and son relationships, there’ll be a ton come up, but they’re all religious based books. Not that I have issue with religion. You know, it’s just, it’s not not a lot of it’s founded within the the theory of psychology or behavioral health, mental health, it’s very theological in its stance. And this study caught my attention, because they were really looking at looking at how the title of it is developmental timing of parent youth intimacy, and protective factor of adolescent adjustment problems. Big long title for saying, parents intimacy with their children will help them develop better. Okay, make it sound like

Brenda 31:13
your, your translation of that. Yes. Yes,

Chris 31:17
very simple, Lee stated. And what they found was father’s father’s role in the family, and their intimacy and affection with their children played not just a key role in the way children’s self worth and self esteem were established. But also depression, anxiety was less, less significant. They found a great role. And not only did they find a great role, but they found that it was even at times greater than mom’s role. Because moms kind of play that role naturally. So when that plays it, it adds an added protective factor to the to the children. And so one of the things I’ve noticed if you were going to do anything, anything to help your child, whether it be your daughter or your son, and this could be from mom or dad, but if I’m looking at dads, put your arm around your kid, the greatest experiences I have with my own 13 year old and all honesty. Come at night when I’m tucking him in bed. Right, he’s 13 he might get picked on if someone watches this that knows him. Right? But David, I don’t care, because I’m still gonna put mom seven and lay down beside him. I’m still gonna talk to him. I’m still still gonna tell him how much I love him. Yeah, yeah. And I’m gonna tell you right now, a friend of mine, Jesse quam causes collecting points. We screw up his dad’s guys. We screw up. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a look at my kids ask her that one. Man. Give me another chance. I really screwed that one up. But you know what makes up for that? Whenever he walks up and says it’s okay, Dad. Let’s do that again. It’s those moments, right? You know, I’m preparing for this, this experience. And so I’m going over my stuff. I’m kind of working on my book, I’m going over my notes. I’m doing things and I’m, I’m going over some things and my son walks in last last week. And he says that he raises dirt bikes. He says, Dad, there’s some races coming up my dirt box, not by dirt bike is knocking. We need to take the top end off of it. I suck at this kind of stuff. That is I can do carpentry plumbing, I can build a house or remodel my house. But when it comes to small motors, I’m not that good. And so I’m hesitant. And my dad, my son looks at me goes Dad, can we go work on this? And I was like, buddy, I’ve got I’ve got this book I’m working on. I’ve got this, this presentation I got to do on Father’s Day, I suck. I suck. He looked at me goes what? And I’m like, Dude, you don’t know, I suck. I suck. And I shut my career, you do better. And I went out to the garage. And next thing you know, we got the top end off the dirt bike and we start taking parts together. And at the end as we’re done. He goes Hey, Dad, thanks for working on the bike with me. I know you didn’t want to do that. Yeah. And I said, I really did that. I really want to be with you more. That’s really what it meant. If you want to know what you’re going to do different for your kids. You can read all the books. You can come to me as a therapist, you can do all kinds of things. Just connect, build the bridge back to them, meet them where they’re at. I suck at video games. My son actually bought Madden 2000 Whatever he hates, hated, hated those games. Why did he buy it? Because he said Hey Dad, we You can play football with me. Right? Next thing you know, we’re playing football in the video game, I suck. And I said, Why did you buy football? He goes, because I knew you. That’d be something you’d want to play with me. I’m not a video game guy. Right? What was he trying to tell me?

Brenda 35:22
He just wants with you that. Yeah, yeah, they want time with you so powerful. It was, I love how you said, you know, you can read books, you can see the therapist. But I think we all know innately, when we need to have that connection, we need to physically touch each other and give each other a hug. And that can be hard to do when you have a kiddo who is angry and really oppositional and you know, doing very things in and so I imagine there’s a lot of work there for dads in particular to be able to, like you said, cross that river and to be the first one to cross the river because

Chris 36:09
no one else will. Yes. I mean, I’d be a 16 year old boy who’s struggling with marijuana and alcohol and other addictions and behavioral issues. Somebody’s going to meet your son where he is. Yes. If it’s not you, percent someone

Brenda 36:24
100%. Yep. Yeah. And not a healthy probably not a healthy person. Maybe Maybe if you got really lucky, but probably not. So

Chris 36:34
not today. Back in the day, you sent them off to work in another in a blacksmith, right? Right, right. And back in the day, you your son would if you couldn’t do it, you sent your son to go work somewhere else. And you tried to give them a positive example. Now we, in high school, they connect with their own people, freshmen kids are dealing with seniors who just screwed up their entire school year, high school experience, you know,

Brenda 36:59
right. And, and, you know, I work with a lot of moms who have kids like this, and it and they turn to this kind of what we don’t know, it’s a term, but this thug life, and gangs, because the gang life really provides that sense of family sense of power. successfulness. And so I see that, and I experienced that with my own son, very scary, very, very scary to see that happen. And so I think your work is so timely, when is your book going to be finished?

Chris 37:34
I’m in the process of writing it. There’s something you see I do well, with this, right, I can communicate verbally with anyone putting into writing, on the other hand, not as easy. And so I’m in the process of trying to take my knowledge, my understanding my experience and my passion and putting it into writing in a way that other people can tolerate. And hopefully, when they read it, or like men is I don’t care how great the topic is, I don’t know if you’ve read a book like that, how intriguing and engaging the topic is. But then you read it and you’re like, Yeah, I got through the first three chapters. And I’ve got several sitting back there on the bookshelf, I’m trying to make it to where not only will a dad want to read it, but the child will also read it. And so that’s, that’s a tall task to try to write across two different age groups, and yet connect and engage and give the same give what I’m trying to give here in writing.

Brenda 38:43
Yes, well, I wish. I wish you all the best in that because I can’t even imagine. But this has been incredibly powerful. And I know that when we post this on the size limit fund website, we’ll put links to where people can find you and find a Aspiro, Thank you, Chris, this is so important. I just hope that a lot of dads will find it in particular, or moms will forward it on as a nice suggestion and for them to listen to. So thank you so much for being with us. Thanks Aspiro for being one of our amazing partners in helping more families get access to wilderness therapy. We love being able to partner with you guys and get some kids in crisis, some help. So it’s great to know that we might send one they get to work with you.

Chris 39:33
Hey, Brenda, thank you so much for this opportunity. I really do consider it a blessing. You guys.

Brenda 39:39
Thank you. Thanks. Well, we love it. And we’re just grateful to work with partners and we will be back next month with another guest speaker so stay tuned and we will see you soon. Thank you.

Chris 39:52
Thank you guys. Thanks