Speaker Series: Full Episode Page

Addressing Controversies: A Look at Wilderness Therapy in Context


Will White, DA, LCSW, LADC, Co-Founder and Program Advisor of Summit Achievement


Brenda Zane is a Sky’s the Limit Fund board member, Founder of Hopestream Community, and podcast host of Hopestream

About the episode:

Will White, a 30 year professional in wilderness therapy, author of “Stories from the Field: A History of Wilderness Therapy” and the host of the weekly podcast, Stories from the Field: Demystifying Wilderness Therapy”, takes a deep look at the current controversies surrounding wilderness therapy, talk about the evolution of and changes to the practice of wilderness therapy, and where it’s is headed in the future.

                  Livestream broadcast

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Brenda 0:25
Hello, welcome. Welcome to today’s event. I’m Brenda Zane, I am a board member of Sky’s the Limit Fund. And Sky’s the Limit Fund is hosting this event for us today. And I’m very excited to be here, we have a really special guest, and we’re going to have really great conversations. And our mission at Sky’s the Limit Fund is to make wilderness therapy more accessible for youth and families. And to date, we have helped over 745 families do that, which is just incredible. And it’s really all due to individual donors and volunteers. And so many of you may be watching, we just want to say thank you so much for everything that you put into this organization. And one of the things that we do at Sky’s the Limit Fund is we’ve really worked to provide resources and information to families about wilderness therapy. And so this speaker series is part of that work. And we launched it during COVID, when we were all sitting at home, really as a way to stay connected with our community and with the families out there that we serve and families that we may potentially serve. And so there are three other past events. And if you haven’t watched those, you can go to the website, click on events, and then you’ll be able to watch the past ones. So just a few quick housekeeping items here before we get started. First is we will be taking questions live today. And so if you would like to submit a question, on the page that you’re watching on, you can scroll down you’ll see a q&a button, you can submit a question, and then we will try to get to as many of them as we can during the talk today. So go ahead and do that if you have questions. Second, we’re going to be running about 4550 minutes depending on how long we’ll and I chat or how many questions we have. So that’s just so that you know, to plan your time. And then third, we always, of course, are very grateful for donations that keep this organization helping families. So if you would like to give today, there is a donate button up in the right hand corner. And then you can also there’s an option to text to donate and that is just send sglf gives 241444 That’s the tricky text way to do it. So. Okay, well today we have the great honor of having a Will White here. And if you’re going to talk about wilderness therapy, like we obviously do at Sky’s the Limit Fund it’s a topic near and dear to our heart will is definitely hands down the guy you want to have to talk about wilderness therapy. He’s the co owner and Outreach Director of Summit achievement wilderness therapy. And he’s also the author of a book and the host of a podcast called Stories from the field, demystifying wilderness therapy and he received a master’s in social work from the University of Denver and also has his doctorate degree in leadership from Franklin Pierce University. He’s been a clinical licensed social worker and an alcohol and drug abuse counselor for over 25 years. So we’ll have literally seen it done it all when it comes to working with youth in an outdoor setting in wilderness therapy, and we’re gonna get into all of that now. So welcome, Will.

Will 4:00
thank you, Brenda. Thank you. Sky’s the Limit fund for inviting me I am so honored to be with all of you. I’m so honored to be with many of you who are parents whose young people went to wilderness therapy. I gotta do a shout out to the mothers here, right? This is Mother’s Day week. Right? You are warriors. We all know the research shows that in this last year and a half more has fallen on Mothers than other than fathers not always the case that you warriors so you women are have been war and mothers have been warriors. During this time. It’s really been an in the field of wilderness therapy. It is women make this huge decision a lot related to having their sons or daughters enroll in wilderness therapy. So shout out to my mom, 90 years old. Wow taught me so much in my life. I’m grateful. And my wife and all of you. So, Oh, that’d be Mother’s Day.

Brenda 5:20
Week this year, we show

Will 5:22
that we’ve had mother’s a year, I will. This season on stories from the field, the mystifying wilderness therapy podcast. All I’ve been doing is interviewing and the season start. This spring has been parents stories, and particularly mothers and fathers and Brenda has been on the podcast sharing her story. I find it really helpful. And I’ve learned a great deal. I do these podcasts because I’m learning. One of the things that my mother taught me is always listen more than you talk and read a lot. And so listening to parents stories I’ve learned and I’ll incorporate some of that in this talk. I also want to clarify it and recognize in this year, I am a privilege. I’m a white male of privilege, who was raised in an intact family in New England, I didn’t spend my whole life in New England. So I like to put it out there because I’m working on that. And I think it’s very important because some segments of this field is very much about privilege. And because of that, I am biased we are. And I believe most of us have biases. That’s why you hire a therapist to help you work on your biases, your blind spots. And I tried to look historically, and my book was stories from the field, a history of wilderness therapy was to look at, hey, well, here are some, here’s some things that we need to work on as a field and hear how these things relate. Because we all have our biases, and our biases are developed through programming through our parenting through warpaint, my, my mothers and fathers raising me and the culture that I grew up in the 60s and 70s, because that’s when I grew up. And the era that the young people are in today is completely different. Because we didn’t have social media, we didn’t have all the pressures that are going on, show to start, I have some slides and Renda is going to interact with me and then we’ll open it up. So Nina, if you can put up the first slide. That’s what we’re talking about. So putting controversies in context. Now, sky’s the limit asked me to do this talk, based on my doctoral dissertation, which took me five years and my book that took me another two years and a podcast that I’ve been putting out for three years. And they said do it in 10 minutes or less. And I said, Well, you know, so this is really compress. All right, I’m going to do the best I can. But I’m going to point you to where the information is if you need more. So next slide. The field of wilderness therapy has been very, very controversial from the early days. And this is a comment from a writer. How can you put young people out in the woods to cook for them search? Surely, it, the program should be shut down. Eight years later, that wilderness program was shut down. Next slide. That was an 1881. It was the first summer camp in America. It was founded on Kent on Squam Lake, which is in New Hampshire. Those of you who I’ll date some of you the lake on which On Golden Pond was supposed to have taken place. It was the first summer camp in America and was founded by this man, Ernest Bosch. In order to next side, please. I live in the northeast and he started this summer he was at Dartmouth College and he saw many privileged youth coming to college, treating the professor’s poorly he’s not having outdoor skills. And the dorm staff who would clean them they would treat them poorly. And he said you know these young people should not be going to the grand resorts, taking their trains. This is 1880s to the grand resorts. That’s why he founded summer camp. And Bosch wanted the campers to become more responsible, independent and resourceful. There will be no service servants, no class distinctions, no slavery, the whole idea was to create change eight years later, and that during that time in 18 80 It was shut down because the educators and parents during that time were like, Oh, this seems really they’re camping and they shouldn’t be camping. That’s not how it should be so long story. But here is if we want to look at wilderness therapy, how it evolve, we’ll have to, you’ll have to read my book, but to very put it in a simple view. It started first at summer camps in 1881 18. At 1922 was the first therapeutic summer camp where actually licensed therapist worked at summer camps, and that the first one was camp Ramapo in upstate New York. 1946 is when we have long term therapeutic camps. Dallas salesman, ship club camp was the first camp and they campers would go for a year at that in 46. During that era, it did not have clinicians involved. It’s 1962 is when we see Outward Bound come to the United States. And that’s what creates a the mountaineering style of Expedition wilderness therapy. And some of them had base camps. It all started at Outward Bound. And one person who had helped instruct at Outward Bound then his name was Larry Nene Olson written a lot about Larry, he created the primitive skills nomadic model wilderness therapy, that is, first you see him at Brigham Young University, and for 80 was the course number. And then in 1996, so from 68 to 96, the field did not have that many licensed clinicians in it at all. It wasn’t until 1996, that outdoor behavioral health care, which is really the best descriptor of what we do in the field comes into being so this if you read my book, or even listen to the podcast, you will see this, this history unfold in the history is there’s controversies within those histories. Next slide, please. Because here are some of the influences on this field. Again, reading the book, you’ll see this religious leaders whether it was Kurt Hahn from Outward Bound, who was a Jewish man who left Germany to go to the England to join the Protestant Church or the Church of England, and then help become a headmaster and, you know, helps train the royal family at the Gordon Stern School. Prince Philip was a student of Kurt Hahn, military leaders Outward Bound, and boy scouting was started to emerge to help prepare young men to be calm military, be ready for the military. Boy scouting was an influence Outward Bound was an influence Brigham Young University, and many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have influenced this field. And many of them as you’ll see in the book, were Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts. And then of course, mental health professionals have highly influenced this field. More so recently. Parents are a huge influence in the field. Former Students are an influence and field. There’s controversies and there’s not. But let’s talk about what’s going on in the current day, or really the modern day 1996 Till today. Next slide. I did, too, but I’ve done three to four episodes about controversies in the field. And here are the nine controversies in a very 10,000 foot level related to the field outdoors that it’s outdoors, just like Ernest Bosch had to face that he sent kids in had a summer camp and that was horrible outdoors, boot camps. It what is a boot camp, research, there’s not enough about it, how people are transported. Licensing and accreditation, staff training, or the lack thereof, cost and privilege, safety and parent involvement. If you really want a deep dive listen to my podcast where I go into it and I’ve had people on the podcast who are We’re critics of the field. And I want to hear those I think anybody who works with vulnerable people, so any mental health professional, we work with vulnerable people and vulnerable situations. And so we should be open and listening to critiques, and adapt and change. Next slide, please.

Here’s what’s been happening since 1996, to 2020. And I can say this really honestly, like most of the stuff that I’ve written previous I found out about I’ve been working in the field, actually, for 30 years, I’ve been a licensed mental health permit provider, it’s not 25 years that that that bio, this road, needs to be updated. I got my first licensed in 1987. So I have seen the mental health field evolve. I’ve been part of that. In the wilderness therapy field, as most of you know of it. It wasn’t really till 1996 That night, licensed mental health professionals, like you pad Brad reedy on, you’ve been Tracy, Tracy is a licensed clinical social worker, they didn’t come into the field really till 96. And a lot of us there were people saying like we don’t like going into the booth, you’ll find out that a lot of wilderness therapy really evolved to counter young people going to the office, that educators thought like experiential education is really going to create more change than them talking to some therapist in their office. In 1996, as clinicians come in, I joined I’m part of the field and we start making statements about what we see should be changed because we want to maintain our licenses, because we can’t do treatment, in an office or or even in the woods, unless we have a license. So the field in since 1996 to 2020. And that continues to change. It becomes more licensed professionals, at academics in terms of researcher really starts in the field in 1996. And now there’s degrees and you can get a master’s degree in wilderness therapy, you can get a master’s degree, a dual Master’s in outdoor edge and adventure therapy, you can get a bachelor’s degree in adventure education. So people are very much they are training more and more. There’s much more family involvement and back. The family involvement that was a one of our shortcomings over the years. And I think you’ll see more social workers become involved in the field. And many social workers come from a family perspectives model, they influence the field to say we need to do more family work. And I still think we could do better in that. Part of my lesson, learning of that is doing this podcast episodes where I’m listening to parents and say, because they need as much as they’re so vulnerable, and they’re in so much pain, because at a time when a lot of their parents are thinking about, Oh, what college should they go to their liking, like, I’ve got to save my child’s life and you’re talking about college. There’s so they’re isolated, and they’re a lot of pain, and they they feel shame. That’s what I’m hearing and that’s what I love about the podcast is hearing and witnessing stories. Now their states are licenses their licenses in different states, not all states have licenses wilderness therapy program, I work in Maine, it does not have a license is wilderness therapy are licensed at somebody’s achievement is a residential treatment center. But there’s national licenses, the outdoor behavioral health care license from the Association for Experiential Ed, the Joint Commission and the Council on rehabilitation. All of those have national accrediting licenses where external reviewers come in. All of this has been happening since 1996. And some of you will say 9096 Oh, that was a long time ago. To me. It’s not it was only 25 years ago. And this, you know, this is not, it didn’t start 96 somebody started the accrediting body of ova or the AE was only five years ago. What happens is transport so some people have transport at youth enrollment. There another thing is called escorts. In the early years that programs did that. And now it’s much more commonly seen externally. So there’s an external group who transports unwilling participants or willing participants to wilderness therapy? Next slide.

Oh, that’s a night. But one thing I can say that is happening now is, and certainly during COVID Is this, we all understand how much spending time in nature is good for all of us, especially if we’ve been locked in buildings. So what else is happening? This is really now, there are 22 only 20 in the whole nation accredited OB H programs that serve adolescents and young adults yet there’s 60 wilderness therapy programs in the program. Country, those are programs that call themselves wilderness therapy show what sky’s the limit fund has only they’re only work with accredited programs. And members who are accredited must pull data from clients that is put into a clearinghouse done at the University of New Hampshire. And what’s happening with that is they’re using that data to help us better be better at what we do the field of wilderness therapy. I’m going to tell people this, they don’t know this that much. And actually, a lot of people in the field of wilderness therapy, who only joined the last 10 years don’t even realize this. But in the early years, when I first started, most programs were 21 days in length, 21 days, you’re done, you go in 21 days, you’re fine, you go out. And that model, what they did research with the outdoor behavioral research cooperative, and the University of New Hampshire, and they found that that was actually the worst time to have young people discharge, that the outcomes were worse. So they extended it a little bit more. And they saw the outcomes, long term longitudinal outcomes were better the longer people. It wasn’t 21 days, it moved us all to the six to eight week model. Now, some are going longer there. So some question about that. But it what the data was 21 days was not and as you can see program shifted. Move currently, right now the University of New Hampshire is in a controlled study research, which is the highest level of evidence based research, controls study research, is that there’s one group of students, people who have identified going to wilderness therapy and another they’re staying at home. And we’re going to see who the outcomes over a one year, two year three year study, and that’s the highest level. What is also occurring at the same same times is there are more books and films are occurring and coming out related to the field of wilderness therapy, more than ever. I have seen in my career. As I said before, most people understand the concept when I started and even 10 years ago, I had to explain what wilderness therapy was nowadays, because so many people have experienced it either personally, they know family members, or they’re like, Yes, I understand I want to be outside. So they understand it. It’s widely accepted. It is also a career. I did podcast series season where I talked to former students, and many of those former students have gone on to work in wilderness therapy. Many of the people who work at my program somebody ciment, as therapists were once field guides, they were field guides, they learn about it like Yeah, I like this, I like this. They went back to graduate school, then they’re becoming therapists. And they’re continuing to help young people. And they’re raising families. So it’s a career path, not like mental, it’s a mental health career path. It’s just outdoors versus indoors. And many of them were former students. So we have had former students who have gone on to be field Gods gone back to get graduate degrees and come back as therapist. So there’s this whole model of growth in the field where people say, I love what I do here. So there’s profound don’t change. So what’s the future? What is the future? One I am? Who knows who would have guessed what the last year that this would be this year? Who knows what you know whether it will still be doing these. But here my guess is what I am seeing I did a whole season the previous season to parents stories is outpatient. There is a movement of adventure and wilderness therapy happening in outpatient settings. This isn’t actually brand new, but it’s becoming quite popular all over the country. People are starting to say questioning licensed mental health professionals, psychologists questioning why am I sitting in the office? Why am I not work walking outside with this person? Why don’t I take this person hiking? Why don’t I take this person skiing? Now you can’t do that with everybody. But there’s this movement, and intensive outpatient. So there’s much more integration of the outdoors in therapeutic programming. We’re seeing in greater insurance reimbursement, I our program itself, and I think all programs are seeing greater insurance reimbursement. And that’s great for our families. What I also think we’re going to see is more state funded programs, many years ago, so a lot of people say, hey, you know, there’s not a lot of program for underprivileged people. And I completely agree with them. And I also say, there used to be, there used to be lots of Outward Bound had a huge segment where they would take young people who had inner city kids from Boston, and that’s why they have the Thompson Island program. Or they would take them out west to the the first early students Colorado Outward Bound came from Boston, Inner City, Boston, because in the 70s, I don’t know, some of you may remember there was the whole prep East prep school prep the stigma of young people going out we’re bound and our bound was like, no, we want to be more diverse. And so it was actually, through funding that they did that there was a program counter vision quest that used to do wagon trains, and it did Tall Ships, all inner city youth experiencing wilderness therapy. But you’re also going to see and what we’re seeing right now is more activism, more activism, both for and against wilderness therapy, based on perspective. And I think with that, we’re going to see more regulation. I believe in regulation, I believe in that we will see more regulation, because that’s what happens in this world. And I’m a licensed professional, I have several different licenses to practice. And I want oversight, I think we should be oversight, how that is shaped. So the magic of wilderness therapy can continue on, while you now getting to pushed into the insurance driven like do this, you know, check off these boxes. But the most important thing is not to do harm. So that was a quick summary brand. And lead next one final slide, if you want if you’re interested in talking to me off the off the saying or if you’re interested in it. I’m still interviewing parents for stories from the field this season. That’s my contact. Brandon, you got some questions and what we saw and what you saw, I’m guessing and then we can open it up.

Brenda 28:59
Absolutely. I do have so many questions. And thank you for that. I think it’s so good as a parent, especially to get some perspective on where where did this come from? Because you’re right, I think you mentioned that when you’re in the moment of needing to look for a treatment program. You’re so laser focused. And so I’m hoping that this can help parents maybe who are listening out of the crisis moment to really get a better handle on where this came from what some of the issues have been the questions that they should be asking about accreditation about licensing it’s so important because I mean, having been there I just assumed that all these places would be licensed and accredited because that it just feels like that would be so it’s I appreciate you sharing, you know, like full transparency about what’s going on and and how the in History really is moving toward being a little bit more structured, I guess, from an accreditation standpoint, feels really good as a parent. And I was really excited to see when you were talking about the IOP programs and outpatient programs incorporating some of this, because what I hear, and I’d love to learn more about it is, parents often feel like there’s there’s, I can have my kids sit and work with a therapist in our hometown, or I have to send them to wilderness therapy. And it doesn’t feel like right now, there’s anything in the middle. And it feels really extreme, I think, to a lot of parents. So that was exciting to me to hear that maybe there’s a local option on an outpatient basis where my kid could get the therapy that they need. But it’s not sitting face to face in an office, which I’m sure all of us have experienced the frustration of that kids tend not to open. You know, they shut down. So that, to me sounds really, really fascinating.

Will 31:05
Yes, there is now a national license to be an in Certified Clinical adventure therapist, and that’s by the Association of experiential education, you have to be a licensed clinician, okay. And then you go through a whole nother set of processes, I’m still going through it, it’s a to getting all the, the wilderness first aid updates and all that stuff. But and you can find people all over the country who are doing it, and it’s a movement, it’s, it’s something that it’s really exciting time.

Brenda 31:44
That’s really, that’s really, really exciting. I love that because, again, with that huge, it just feels like such a huge gap between a local resource, and then wilderness therapy, which, you know, thank goodness for places like sky’s the limit fund where where we can help families who might not be able to afford it do that, but there’s so many that it’s still out of reach for them. So it can be a very frustrating experience as a parent to say, wow, these local resources aren’t working for us. And I think we all know the benefit of getting outside. And I’d love to ask you a quick question before we go into the questions from the audience. But what are you what are you thinking is going to be happening coming out of COVID, we’ve got kids who have been, you know, living in this crazy world that none of us have ever lived in. And I feel like all of a sudden, we kind of expect them to pop back into school and into life. And as we come out of this, what are your thoughts about what kids and young adults, when I say kids, I mean, up to, you know, mid 20s? What are they going to be experiencing? And do you think wilderness, if a parent is seeing their kids struggle now coming out of this and trying to readjust? How would wilderness fit into that scenario?

Will 33:05
It’s a great question. I think that wilderness therapy will and that’s why I think insurance companies, you’re going to see a huge movement, because it gives you time to be out and see that things do get disrupted in this world. COVID is a disrupting force. And yet things come back, they change, they become something different. And what I see in some cases, young people who were actually more resilient than they were before, because they’ve had to, Alright, I gotta structure this, I got to do this. And, and they’ve been like, Okay, I’ve got to structure myself, because they haven’t, because their parents may have had to work in the house. Show. There’s some good and bad from it. I definitely know everybody I know who works at Outward Bound and knows and summer camps, that there’s going to be an onslaught of people, young people going to will wilderness experiences, not wilderness therapy, more like a summer camp, and those. And wilderness therapy is very, everybody’s very busy right now. And part of that is I think, to help process the difficulties because we don’t know what everybody’s personal experiences in their houses were. And because we were all locked in our houses and some people’s, you know, really struggled in that house. And some kids actually were like, This is great. I don’t have to deal with the social pressures anymore. I’m online school and I process differently. But the field is definitely preparing for it. And I think being outside is really one of the antidotes.

Brenda 34:53
Yeah. That’s great. I feel the same. It’d be really interesting to see. I’m going to pop up a question here that we have from the audience and wondering if you could take a look at that. So he or she says I’m struggling with conflicted emotions from making a decision that literally stole time, not only from my child, but also from our family. It also made it harder for him to fit in when he returned home, I now wish made a different choice. Got something? Wow,

Will 35:25
well. That’s a tough one. And I think perspective is an important thing, I have to be a little bit transparent than when I was young, I was forced to a wilderness therapy program that I didn’t want to go to, and my parents made me stay and complete it. Now, during that time, I did not like it. As I got older, I look back and see it as one of the biggest growth movements in my life. And now in transparency. I called it wilderness therapy. But it was boy scouting, my parents made me go to B. Now, that’s not to minimize what you are saying what this parent wrote. But the experience of the time is I did not like it. I did not like that. My parents said you have to do this. And as I got older, I look back on it. It helped me grow so much. And it my time away. And I think many the parents stories in young people’s stories. When we look back on our lives, we look back and we can see a thing and say that was horrible. Or it was good. And sometimes those things that are the most challenging that we experience in our life, like this pandemic, like death of a family member, like entering recovery, those challenges, we we our mind shift later, and we go, wow, that was really good for me. Yeah, and perspective is really key thing

Brenda 37:14
is it’s so it’s so important. And I would just offer to to the parent who asked this question, because my son used the exact same words, you stole time for me. And so I believe that they really do feel that and like you just said, well, now in retrospect, he recognizes that it was time that he had to have a way. And we I think we tend to say, okay, that chunk of time was stolen. But that chunk of time also could have made things go horribly worse. So yes, it’s maybe a chunk of time that they were safe. They were learning some things, and they were removed from some of the dangers, potentially that would have escalated while they were gone. So I feel for the parent asking that question, because it’s very difficult to have, there’s like a gap in your family. And I think you just have to remember what some of the alternatives might have been, if you didn’t have that gap. And then also that there are some positives that come out of that, that might not be recognized for a while.

Will 38:21
Right. And whatever was going on, we don’t know the context within this young person, if they had been substance abusing, and they had time away, we know that it helps the brain grow to be drug free for a period of time. And that mean that’s and somebody can really resent that. Or we can see like one of the brain helped grow. But it is the transition. And that’s a key piece at that parent point. I know that like transitioning back. How do you do that? Well, and how, how do you make it so like, that’s part of the story. I went on this experience and I came back. You can come back and say it was horrible. You can come back and say it was good. Or you can say like, well, here’s the good. Here’s the challenges. Right.

Brenda 39:11
All right. We have a couple of other questions that I want to make sure we have time for. You’re probably so tired of this question. No. Well, valid one. Yeah.

Will 39:26
Well, one I have to say, I like Kenneth Rosen. I’ve had a couple of I read his book. I did an interview with him. I talked to him. I like it is a good guy. His first he has his perspectives. I don’t I’ve never talked to Paris Hilton. I did watch the documentary. That was it was an interesting documentary. How do I respond? One is I think they should read it. They should read all accounts and get educated they should listen to the episode that I did with him because I want to hear his story. And he’s, it’s actually he’s a good writer. Their perspective is valid, and it’s helping make changes. And also their perspective is from that period of time that they were there. The program, all the programs that Kenneth was in don’t exist anymore. And I know that for a fact, because while he says it, and I knew people who worked in those programs, and there’s reasons why those programs don’t exist. But I think that you’re gonna, there’s going to always be critiques and the field should be open to those close to tigs. And I’m pushback about I just like, hear their points. Are we anxious people now more? So yes. And when you hear something like that, of course, you’re gonna like, this is horrible. None of this should be going on. And what else are things? When people go to the point of rolling their young people and wellness therapy, they have exhausted other avenues, they’ve tried the outpatient, they’ve tried IOP, intensive outpatient, and wilderness therapy saves a lot more. It saves a lot of lives. Now these, and some people experienced it in a really traumatizing way. And I cannot allow whatever want to discount another person’s narrative. Right? Yeah. And narratives change over time?

Brenda 41:45
Yes. All right. Not to cut you off, I want to just make sure we get to these questions that people are wanting some answers to. So what is the future of wilderness therapy regarding both diversity internally and families participating? And I would say make sure to go back and watch Tracy’s talk from last month. Yeah, for whoever’s asking us because Tracy

Will 42:08
is amazing. And she is really good at pointing out to the field, and I am one of those people in the field to like, Hey, you, you talk this, but you need to act this and not only act but learn, show, I am optimistic about it. I am optimistic as a culture as a nation, that we are becoming much more diverse and welcoming. And I think helping fund and I think that those are crazy. So I’m optimistic if I was going to say the future, and I’m still learning I, I grew up I went to social work school, my parents are progressive. And in those last year and a half, I certainly realize how limited i i was, and I think I hope all will all of us see that. Who are white privileged people, just by being a white man, I’m privileged.

Brenda 43:12
Yes, I agree. And myself as well. So yeah, and that’s why I love just, you know, being part of the STLR family and trying to make that more accessible. So another question, how do I navigate my insurance to either pay for upfront or reimburse wilderness therapy? This could be its own talk, what percentage of wilderness therapy

Will 43:35
be tenacious, Be tenacious, because I, any parent that have been tenacious that we’ve worked with, they’ve ended up getting the resources they’re starting to be. They’re bigger claims that there’s lawsuits related and they tend to be going 5060 for a back and four. But what will what insurance companies tend to be paying are for the the sessions with the therapist, the group sessions, a lot of times they not may not be paying for other things, but to family work they’re paying for. And there’s some there’s some organizations and I can’t take them right off the top of mine who will work with you to really address and they’re run by lawyers, who are the best people to talk to insurance companies. I can get those to sky’s the limit.

Brenda 44:35
Great. That’s great. All right. I think we have one more I’m working on changing my parenting style, but need help. Where do I start any programs for parents that you recommend? Oh, I

Will 44:46
love Chrissy Positech spoke parallel process. I use it all the time myself. That’s where I would start Brenda, you’re like Yeah, yeah. One of the best ways books. And that’s where I would start any parent programs, anything a Chrissie Positech. Any of her coaching seminars is a highly recommend it.

Brenda 45:14
Yeah, absolutely. And parenting. Beyond addiction is a great one workbook actually for parents that you can work through, which is fabulous. So yeah,

Will 45:28
I got into this, it’s people like Brenda Zane, you’re you have you work with parents, there’s these like, I don’t, I’m just learning more about this on the podcast, listening to parents tell there’s parenting groups and talk to other parents who are in it or went through it, because there’s some really cool Facebook groups that are going on. And don’t be alone. Don’t be alone. Don’t do this by yourself, do it with others. And customs. Like Brenda, our way post it and years earlier, you probably could have would have helped.

Brenda 46:08
It’s exactly why I do what I do. Because there wasn’t anybody. So

Will 46:14
thank you. Well, son tells his story, too. So you can listen to her and then her son’s episode and you can realize what a powerful warrior mother you have are. Yeah, that all of you are.

Brenda 46:32
Thank you. Yeah, moms moms do a lot. And dads too. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolute all of them. Yeah. Thank you. Well, this has been amazing. And we will be speaking again soon. I’m sure we tend to end up on either side of a microphone together at some point. Yeah. And on your wants to find out if somebody wants to find out more about you or your podcast or book. What’s the best way for them to do that?

Will 46:57
Well, it’s will wi L at stories from the Okay, stories from the is the podcast and the book page. That’s sort of my academic and, you know, geeky work that I like to do. And I work at Summit achievement, I co founded that we’re a very small program. But we’ve been around for 25 years, I’m always willing to talk to parents. And what I’ve heard and on this this season from parents, really like working with Ed Consultants is really helpful. Working with organizations like sky’s the limit, learn as much as you can.

And talk to other parents. Yeah, are we good with all the questions? No more questions?

Brenda 47:47
I think we are I think we are. So I just want to thank everybody for watching today. So yes, thank you. We’ll make sure to mark your calendars for June 10, because that is our next event. And we have two awesome people on. It’s called launched and unraveled the young adult phenomenon. And we are going to have a great time with Joanna Lilly and Chris Blankenship. We’re going to talk and we’re great pupils, and yes, address all of the reasons why kids are having a really hard time kind of launching into independent adulthood. And so that’s going to be amazing. So make sure if you’re watching, get registered for that, and then we will see you back here on June 10. So I want

Will 48:36
to do I gotta do a plug for that one too, because one of the things we definitely see is a lack of maturity. mature people are maturing later and the pandemic has slowed our maturation because instead of going out on the nest for bat, they’re back in the nest. So listen, go to that one. Listen to that. Great, thank you sky’s the limit.

Brenda 49:00

yes. Thank you



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